Not sure if i agree with Overlord, I have never heard anyone complain about me heroic moving a formation of gobs to get them to the front line... (although units without might cant do duels)

also, not sure if stormcallers should be 75pts, spells of wilderness suck for the most part, so could make the stormcaller cheaper

OR

change the spells.
Im gonna go over them and bold the ones that should be tweaked

spells of darkness are awesome, while spells of wilderness hardly help compared to darkness
spells of dismay and command are great, they arent blasting ppl, instead are more cunning and subtle, pretty much how magic should be

wilderness is really weak,
call winds is just used to remove pall of night... it should move ppl more and lessen their shooting (as a bonus since it seems fitting)
entangle is iffy, if they have pathfinders master then its usless (and alot of formations worth casting this on have pathfinders), but great against mumaks
panic beast is pretty much the same as call winds, just moves them further but only for cavalry or flying monsters
guide arrows, most laughable thing in the game, enough said
natures wrath, pretty good as its not strong enough to be spammed, but great if they are holding up in terrain

spells of ruin
exicatte is ok, i usally only get something like 3 kills in a 3c formation, but if they are D3 and epic ruination..... (once my friend lost 3c out of 5c of prowlers to saruman! epic ill talk about this more at the end)
tremor is bad for most casters cause of friendly fire, but on highly mobile stuff like the dragon it is one of the most deadly
bolt of fire, pretty good as it gets you a few kills, but not a ton
dark fury, nice
shatter shields, good, but if you roll a 6 its OP

spells of darkness
wings of terror, toooo much! lower the values
pall of night: the most used spell in the game i think, needs to be tweaked, but not sure how
blackdart, ok spell, not sure if it needs to be tweaked
str from corruption, good, but too much damage to monsters
blackbreath, nice, but renders ppl like gilgalad useless...

how to change them:
call winds, move ppl further
entangle: pathfinders doesnt negate it
panic beast: heck make a new spell
guide arrows: gives 3 or 4 more shots/company
tremor: reduce range and/or str
shatter shields: on a 6 its gone for 2 or 3 turns and there should be a counter spell
wings of terror: +3" of movement (max 12"), and +3" of charge distance (max 8")
pall of night: shooting part the same, roll to charge -4 (so you still have a chance)
blackdart, not sure
str from corruption: D3 hits to monsters instead of D6
black breath: -5 to fight and -4 to courage of hero (so gil-galad wont be useless) (not sure about this one)

thats my thoughts, good still doesnt have spells as good as evil, but they make up for it with counselors, epic rampage ect

and i think that ES should give +3, duels are only way to get rid of some heroes, so it should still give a significant boost in duels (but this should still be tested)

about the epic ruination killing the prowlers: saruman moved to 2c scouts and was about to be assaulted by a stone giant at 3ish wounds and 5c prowlers, epic ruination, exiccate on prowlers, killed 3c, tremor and bolt of fire on the giant killing him. prowlers are now too big to go through terrain to flank 2c scouts.... what looked like a really stupid move won him the game (cause he rolled AMAZINGLY well)

there was something else that i was going to suggest but i forgot...

To be honest, the solution with magic that would make me the happiest would be to restrict 'Ruin' to only Saruman, the Dragon, and the Balrog, make 'blinding light' a power for Gandalf the White, not Grey; and junk the whole darkness list entirely. I'm trying to avoid doing anything too radical with this house-rules page though.

As a temporal step, one of my mates did suggest allowing spell casters to 'Will of Iron' any spell cast. Spells already get negated 2/3 of the time under these houserules and that would give others the chance to block say 'Wings of Terror' - assuming there is a spellcaster in the list to do it.

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hmmm ya there should be a way of blocking spells that they cast on their formation, as well as tremor as its not targeting anyone, so you cant block it.
dont get rid of darkness, if you can block spells that they cast on themselves (on a 3+) then you can still shut them down. besides, evil's trump card is magic, good's is counselors, epic rampage ect.. so they both have things going for them (and with will of iron a 3+, and all the might good can get, they should be able to block alot of evils magic easily)

They are your house-rules and you may freely alter what you like.

Personally, I'm toying with a much simpler/less radical 'nerf' (that is what you call reducing the power?) on Mordor. Change the points of Ringwraiths that are Epic Heroes (the winged ones seem fairly priced and are vulnerable in ways that the Epic Heroes are not - missile fire and other direct attacks by 'rank and file, plus spells). My suggested alternatives are:

Ringwraiths - 150 points except for
Khamul - 160 points
Witch King - 175 points.

This makes Shaman a more attractice option and also reduces the gap between the Witch King and the others. A 4 Wraith Mordor army now costs 100 points more - 5 companies of Orcs, whilst if Khamul is added they are 7 companies down - a whole formation.

Stepehn

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Hi BoromirofIpswich, they are 'my' houserules - which are actually mostly thought up by other people, so additional input is always apprecciated. It's good to have had a few people from different groups try them too, you get into playing the game a certain way in your own a group and risk some faulty assumptions.

I'd happily pay 160 pts for Khamul's ability.

Banning/restricting spell-lists is not for the houserules Shadowswarm, but allowing spellcasters to WOI any spell might be worth including - I'll discuss that one with the other guys. It could be an added sentence on the 3+ WOI line.

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I've been making a house rules list. I haven't used it yet (and its quite extensive) but its looking like its rounding out. I've included some of the ones you've listed. I'm just bouncing things off here.

(*) Updated as of Jan.30/11

The Shoot Phase
*Accuracy Bonus: Is now worth double the listed value. That includes negative shoot values.
Support fire: Any company outside line of fire/sight/range will be support fire if one company can make its shot count. This is to end wasting time figuring out if they have 1 extra dice or not which is a waste of time.

The Fight Phase
*Combat Modifiers, Battle Skill: +2 dice per point of difference.

Defensible Terrain
Exiting a Terrain Feature: Units with Pathfinder (Master) or Spirit Walk are considered to move half their movement for exiting a terrain feature and can continue moving as normal. These formations can also charge from a Defensible Terrain at half their charge value from the nearest edge and stalls on a roll of 1 or 2.
Shooting at or from a defensible terrain feature: Instead is measured to the edge. This is to represent the fact they are looking over the battlefield and can shoot further from an elevated position. Since they are protected under cover they are in a more comfortable position. Likewise, the enemy can easily target the occupied building like hitting the broad side of a barn. This is also to prevent strange building types like a long section of wall or a huge forest from destroying the usefulness of firing from these strategic positions.

Arms and Armor
*Glaives: +1 to Fight Value, they pass all secondary rolls on the to-hit chart.
Short Bows: The full 18" is considered short range.
Blowpipes: Reduced to Strength 1 and the full 12" is considered short range. If one company is able to fire on an enemy formation, all companies in the formation can fire at full strength. (No support fire)

*Special Rules
*Expert Riders, Skilled Riders: May on the double and shoot.
*We Stand Alone: These formations can At the Double as if they had a Hero in it.
*Spirit Grasp: Add any Enemy Formation in base contact may not use a Hero's courage value instead of their own.
*Hard to Kill, Very Hard to Kill, Extremely Hard to Kill: Cannot achieve a Death Blow from Shooting but instead receive a +3 wound counter.

Heroes
Heroic Shot: Crossbows and Siege cannot use Herioc Shot.
Epic Charge: Includes a Heroic Charge for free.
Epic Strike: Adjusts Hero's Fight value to base value plus 2. Can be called any time during the Fight phase, even after rolls for Heroic Duel are made to change the results.
Overlord: A Mumak cannot make a Heroic Move.

Magic
Will of Iron: On a 3 or more the spell is resisted.
All spells that indicate 'from the caster' is now chosen from any point in the caster's company.
*Tremor: Cannot effect flying creatures. Cannot be cast while in Defensible Terrain.
*Dark Fury: On a 2 to 5, the formation can re-roll 2's and 3's when rolling To Hit in close combat. On a roll of 6, they can re-roll all failures except 1's.
Black Dart: Remove a minimum of 1 rule for hits.

All Factions
Take Aim: Includes the rules for Heroic Shot for free.
Any poisoned weapons or bites on roll of 2 can be re-rolled. 1's always miss.

Rohan
All Rohan Calvary can cause an Unstoppable Charge of a roll of 5 or 6
All Rohan Calvary can cause an Earth Shaking Charge on a roll of a 5 or 6.
Rohan, All Legendary Formations Base cost reduced to 75 points.
Riders of Rohan Eored: Cost 25 points per company.
Outrider Eored: Cost 30 points per company.
Sons of Eorl: Cost 40 points per company.
Erkenbrands Riders: Cost 35 points per company.
Elfhelm's Riders: Cost 35 points per company.

The Elven Kingdom
*All Infantry charge D6+4"

The Dwarf Holds
Vault Warden's: The Shields are so heavy and thick they cannot be broken.
Durin's Guard, Bodyguard: Or any epic hero that has joined the formation added to rule.

The Forgotten Kingdom
Gandalf the White's upgrade costs 50pts instead of 100pts.
Treebeard: Ent Charge range of effect increased to 12"

Evil
Mordor Troll Chieftain: Troll charge range of effect increased to 12"
Mordor/Isengard Battering Ram: Is now a command option for Orcs or Uruk-Hai only and costs 40 points.
The Witch King: His rules have an unlimited range no matter the facing.
Ringwraiths: Spell mastery for all Wraiths changed from 3 to 2 except for the Witch King.
Khamul the Easterling: On a 5 the hit is discounted and on a 6 the hit is applied to another formation.
The Betrayer: Betrayer can reroll all misses except 1's.
Sauron: Sauron has the one ring. If Sauron is slain roll d6. On a roll of a 2+ he is not killed and keeps his current wound counter. This roll cannot be modified with might.

Other Things
A natural roll of 1 is always a miss. Can be adjusted with Might.

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Those rules seem pretty balanced. I especially like the "Unstoppable Charge" and "Earthshattering Charge" for the Rohirrim.

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Hi Slythar, that looks like a good list. It is a bit long for my taste. However that is just, well, a matter of taste. I like to bounce off ideas too, so in that spirit:

I think you are too kind to Khamul and too harsh on the Witch-King.

What is the reasoning behind a '1' always failing? I can see it in the case of Epic Rampage, but I think it otherwise works fine and wargames rules (though there are exceptions) don't generally have such a provision. I think that it is almost necessary in a game like WOTR, where a single dice roll encompasses up to three other rolls (eg hit, wound, save) found in some other bloated and old-fashioned systems. Oddly, you adopt the reverse approach with Overlord. I would suggest that leaving it RAW (or FAQ changed, to avoid unnecessarily annoying some) for both Overlord and the rolling 1s might be best, with specific exceptions for the Mumak and Epic Rampage?

For magic, I almost wonder if a complete re-work (another page of houserules lol) isn't in order? I don't exactly disagree with what you have, but I think there are some other egregious offenders (PON and WOT spring to mind) that could do with fixing as well. Then things like 'Guide Arrows' need a boost, and so on.

I like the point about supporting fire. In fact, I am not entirely sure if we even always bother to check the range for those back coys anyway - when pressed for time. It does seem to be extra work for minimal gain, so I think you've added something the rules-writers should have. However, I am not sure behind the reasoning for shortbows? If it is to fix Dwarves, then it might be better to consistently give all Dwarves bows. However, I think Goblins are quite good enough without the small penalty to their shooting getting taken away.

I also really like the changes you have suggested for Elves around charging and a nod in the direction of fixing glaives. However, a 6/4 in melee is a rarish occurrence (arising at def 8 and above, or when enfeebled) and a simple '6' is more usual. Earlier in this process, someone suggested just giving Elves rerolls. Now I think that is far too much for Elven bow, but isn't nearly as bad in terms of melee. Would you consider Glaives giving rerolls instead? I like where you are going here, and anything that improves Elves but does not further lend itself to one big 'deathstar', has got to be a good thing.

I also agree that Rohan need something, but it seems to me that offered a package of rules like you have here - I'd still leap for Rohan Royal Knights in an instant. Sure you have boosted the shooting from some other units, but the Knights have throwing weapons, are better armoured, and can effectively charge even from the front. Worse still, other units are now better shooters than the normal Riders, who get relatively little to justify their 30 pts. They are poor chargers and in melee, even fighting to an infantry formation's flank will likely not be a winning proposition unless they get their 1/3 free double-hit.

Last, but not least, I think the issue of defensible terrain is worth consideration. However, I would be really cautious about allowing charges out of it. At the moment, the time/space warping properties of this terrain type are quite bad enough without also allowing units to do that! Still, shooting ranges are an issue. When I lay tables, I adhere closely to the guideline (IIRC) that no piece should be larger than a foot. What we then do is have larger features (say a far and neighbouring field) be two separate pieces - but you can fight in melee, from one to another. Throwing weapons I fudge a bit, by having units within about 2" be eligible targets and also able to throw their own weapons in. As long as the piece isn't bigger than 1', I think the other ranges work fine.... and I think that players with units that explode (or casters of tremor) would love to measure the range of that from all around a defensible terrain piece.

Thanks for posting your list up, it's given me something to think about.

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Wow that was a long reply...

I've play tested Khamul and not letting him choose I think is the way to go so its not taking full advantage of his power. Reducing his mastery to 2 makes more sense after playing him and since usually there are more than one wraith in an army, Wraiths need to plan a direction for combat rather than getting every advantage possible.

Witch King I haven't tried yet. It does seem abit harsh that everything autopasses terror. Maybe a range like within 12" or 24" of would be better.

brb... kids

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Well, I wanted to address the points. I did leave it a few days before I typed it! When you type 'not letting him choose', do you mean that you also do not let him choose the target of the bounced hits? Having that in there does mitigate many of the issues with Khamul.

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1's always failing after going through the rules, I find that when you allow 1's to hit that it lends to power gaming more so than not. I was factoring in the Betrayer, which after play testing does make him less effective but yet still powerful. Sometimes you roll a ton of ones. lol Obvious Epic Rampage, I just want to ensure that there was a chance the formation might survive (although still unlikely). Maybe poison is a bit silly. My point is if you are already wounding on 2's for whatever reason, no re-roll. I thought of saves but I don't want too much rolling or another long winded list for each hero's saves. Actually one of the annoying things about SBG (from what I heard from my friends who tried it) was the saves. Nothing dies seemingly, whereas in WOTR things are dying constantly.

In the end its a simple rule all can remember.

Time to play with my son...

oh... Khamul still chooses the reflected hit. I wanted to keep that in Spirit of the game so if a friend comes over with his list, I'm not completing nixing his army build.

And thanks for the thoroughness of your reply Xelee.

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Ok... I have time again.

Pall of Night is pretty deadly. Only options I can think of is allowing Heroic Charges to be exempt. Kinda makes sense but whether the rest of the formation would follow is another thing. Another option, which probably is better, is to reduce their charge distance to say d6"-2", basically enough to join combat if its close and PON doesn't loose much of its appeal aswell.

Wings of Terror is awesome too. Those evil guys get all the good stuff. Charge distance is too far, should be on level with Calvary in my opinion. Flying creatures should get all the advantages of flying as possible because they are costed as such. Why would someone cast Wings of Terror on a Calvary formation anyways (Speaking as if I'm a Ringwraith right)? I could disallow on the double which is really when they get to flank you no problem like Army of Dead's Shadowstride. And I don' think that rule really deters someone from casting it either. Actually now to think of it, magic does need an overhaul. I can really go on an on.

For Short bows, most things are D7 D5 anyways so it won't really make a difference. I just wanted those bows to be able to shoot at The Shadowlord. Those extra 6" at full strength might be a reason to take them. I suppose it makes Goblin archers a little better but archers are generally overpriced anyways, even at 20.

The Glaives I didn't want them to be 2-Handed weapons. Elves in my opinion should be better suited at taking down the big stuff. So Sauron, Fellbeasts, Trolls, Balrogs, Udun Armor... see what I mean. If its not enough I could up the fight value bonus. +1 Fight isn't really much. Maybe +3 would be better. Glorfindel would be F10. 3 extra dice can be very good and they would really tear up monsters. About Longbows, I really need to try it out. My friend has loads of elves but doesn't want to play them. I think this rule will encourage him to play them and we should all fear Elf Bows. Elves are tricky to get better. If they had something that could lower courage I think they would do better, like the Tainted. Maybe a bard command option that lowers the courage of enemy formations in contact so terror is easier to set in.

Rohan I had a tough time as you can tell. I kinda skimped on Eored. I need to rethink Rohan. I play tested them and they got leveled like always.

Charging out of Defensible Terrain I haven't tried yet. Usually in the games I play the weaker units hide in them. Units with Spirit Walk are already overpriced so I see no problem with them moving where ever they want. Pathfinder master maybe you got a point if the formation has Wings of Terror cast on it. But its still half the charge range so d6+8 max would be 7". Normally infantry would be 4" max. It gives a reason to stay close to a building so there isn't room for them to get out. Like if an army is gonna burn it down it better be close enough to roast the marshmallows. I should change the stall portion of it whereas if you attempted to leave you would first be placed outside and if you failed, you'd still be outside. That would be a determent. I never thought about Tremor or Sappers.

I've been working on these House Rules for awhile so some input is really nice to hear. I didn't want to show you guys anything unfinished (albeit Rohan could of been better)

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How about formations armed with glaives ignore the defence bonus from shields?

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I think that is not a bad way to do it - and is definitely 'tidier'. However, I actually did like the earlier suggestion of rerolls, in terms of feel. It seemed like it mimiced the sheer weight of accurate fire/wall of scything glaives that we get to see at the Last Alliance scene.

I didn't want to give bow rerolls because 1. it would just make them altogether too mean vs Monsters (since multiple coys can focus fire) and 2. because I felt the real balance issue there was cheap heavy inf in particular, and making it about shields would target that more exactly.

In the case of Glaives balancewise, '1' does not apply, but I guess '2' does. So your suggestion works. You and Suds4eva gave (some? All?) of the houserules a try, so what do you guys think re: Elven balance with them?

Slythar has a good idea about perhaps giving Glaives a fight boost instead, in that perhaps the notion that things like a point of fight just giving +1 dice could be revisited. Glaives, fight values, etc would make a lot more sense pointswise if they did more. This need not apply the same to Monsters as well, and the changes we have made to ES at +2 fight put a cap on issue that might arise there. Similarily, the houserules cap the Knight's formation boost to just a coy, so are there other units/abilites that would cause problems if we made fight value have more impact?

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Maybe glaives get their own combat speed? Before Infantry, but after Cavalry. If Cavalry, before Cavalry, but after Monsters. If Monsters, before Monsters.

Maybe retain the +1F...

Actually, that's not a bad suggestion - bows almost become ok vs cavalry (a combination of less models and lower defense) so it is enemy infantry that make things hardest for Elves.

I think I'll 'steal' it. It definitely has more flavour than adding more numbers/rerolls etc so adds to the Elven list, IMO.

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I came up with a couple ideas although not throughly thought out.

Maybe Glaives can instead double the battle skill to +2 per difference in fight. I was thinking doubling battle skill to 2 altogether aswell, it would certainly put a value on Fight value on par or maybe even more so than strength.

Also doubling up the shooting bonus wouldn't be a bad idea and scrap the ignore shields altogether. Also allow elves to shoot their bows and charge.

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Ok I revamped the Rohan rules. Basically reduced the cost of all the non-Lanced formations of calvary by 5 points. Got rid of Longbows. Got rid of Elf Glaives and Elf Bows rule. I updated the initial list I made.

Rohan:
All Rohan Calvary can cause an Unstoppable Charge of a roll of 5 or 6 instead of 6 and also can cause an Earth Shaking Charge on a roll of a 5 or 6.
Riders of Rohan Eored: Cost 25 points per company.
Outrider Eored: Cost 30 points per company.
Sons of Eorl: Cost 40 points per company.
Erkenbrands Riders: Cost 35 points per company.
Elfhelm's Riders: Cost 35 points per company.

The Shoot Phase
Accuracy Bonus: Is now worth double the listed value. That includes negative shoot values.
The Fight Phase
Combat Modifiers, Battle Skill: +2 dice per point of difference.

I really want to see how badly Battle Skill can affect the use of higher fight formations and whether this would level out the playing field completely. If its too much I could make it a fraction instead say +1.5 dice rounding down. Those with Thrown Weapons will see a big difference aswell.

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I said it so that it could be "stolen" It seems better than giving the rules to JUST elves and also prevents things getting too convoluted. It also adds credence to elves (who use the most glaives) being swift warriors, can be because of the added reach of a glaive and be helped by the choice of one-handed/two-handed use.

Another, less simple alternative is that you have the option of using it as a hand weapon (no change) or as a two-handed weapon (-1F and +1 To Hit). Maybe keep the +1F for hand weapon usage?

I'll be trying the new rules tonight in an 800 point game vs. Rohan. I'll be fielding a typical Mordor Army, that should gauge how effective they are (since they would normally level them). 6c Morranon Shields, 8c 2-H Orcs w/banner, 2 Siege Bows, Khamal, Betrayer and a Troll.

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