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 Post subject: Re: If you could change one character or rule............
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:34 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: If you could change one character or rule............
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:13 am 
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Dernhelm, Knight of Rohan
65 points
F5/4+ S3 D6 A2 W2 C4 M3 W2 F2

Special Rule;
Kings protector (just like Hama's Kings man rule) - if Théoden is on the board, Dernhelm automatically passes all courage tests.
Kings Avenger - If Theoden dies in battle, Dernhelm will move full unerringly toward the one who struck down the king until either Dernhelm is dead or the King is avenged. Dernhelm will continue to pass all courage tests as well until the King has been avenged, at that point Dernhelm takes courage tests as normal. If the one who killed the king is killed or removed from the board by any means then treat as avenged.

Equiptment;
Armour
Shield

Options;
Horse - 6 points
Throwing Spear - 5 points


Not sure the points is right, it is late and has been a long day. It is a lesser profile of her brother and I nixed her courage a bit only because why pay for it when the rules take care of that, also I think the courage came from emotional spot of wanting to prove herself and then also to defend Théoden. After that she would be fairly drained and back to a normal.

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 Post subject: Re: If you could change one character or rule............
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:06 am 
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I would say, lower the points cost by 5 points and make her an independent hero.
I think people would use this profile a lot to lead troops, because its a good cheap mid level hero hence the independent hero thing, but also i don't think she would be leading troops. At this point its more about seeking glory/proving herself than giving orders. The points drop is not 100% necessary its just there to offset the independent status.

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 Post subject: Re: If you could change one character or rule............
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:17 pm 
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In a weird way I think we could actually make some profiles weaker, mostly Cirdan, I really like him but his points are off but not because he is over or under-costed but that he is paying for stats he doesn't need.

With no weapon D4, 1A, 2W, 1M and 1F he is not a combat hero but a caster whose real only use is casting blinding light and/or Aura of dismay, in fact with the new rules he actually becomes less effective only being able to channel one of his spells a game. However you're paying for F5 and S4 which you don't need and shouldn't have as he is an old man if you made his profile F3 and S3 (maybe even D3 as well he is frail, old and armoured) it would make sense as you would then drop his cost be 20-25pts or so and make him a much more reasonable hero for what he can do.

At the current moment you cast channeled aura of dismay on two dice and either blinding light or aura of command once on a turn when it really counts and then he does nothing for the rest of the game for the same price as Legolas who is a game changer or Thranduil who is magically more effective because of his circlet and still has a full supply of will to resit spells and has better combat stats as well (and allows a troop upgrade) Cirdan at the 60-70 point make just makes more sense and would give the high elf list a cheap effective caster to add a little tactical variety and he then has a place in the White council list as well
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 Post subject: Re: If you could change one character or rule............
PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:37 am 
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I'd change the Mirror of Galadriel to something more useful!

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 Post subject: Re: If you could change one character or rule............
PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:42 am 
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Hodush wrote:
I'd change the Mirror of Galadriel to something more useful!


I'd nerf the da** thing! I hate fighting it

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 Post subject: Re: If you could change one character or rule............
PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:33 pm 
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OMG^ really? its that many points, and just looking at it, its next to useless.

Recovering fate? It should do something way more interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: If you could change one character or rule............
PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:40 pm 
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Yes really lol. I played a recent game against an Elven force that had the mirror and Elladan + Elrohir, Galadriel, Haldir and am allied Dwarf contingent including Dwalin, Thorin, the Kings Champion.

I was Harad and only fielding roughly 1/2 their points. I was forced to a draw nectar that stupid thing. I couldn't kill the heroes in one turn and they just kept recovering their fate

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 Post subject: Re: If you could change one character or rule............
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:33 am 
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JamesR wrote:
Yes really lol. I played a recent game against an Elven force that had the mirror and Elladan + Elrohir, Galadriel, Haldir and am allied Dwarf contingent including Dwalin, Thorin, the Kings Champion.

I was Harad and only fielding roughly 1/2 their points. I was forced to a draw nectar that stupid thing. I couldn't kill the heroes in one turn and they just kept recovering their fate


Yeah I use it all the time, it's one of those rules that look a little lackluster on paper but in game but is irritating as hell. You tend to think about it giving a captain his one fate back every so often or it making Galadriel a little more survive but it so much more powerful than that. If you leave it near a powerful high defence and fate hero like Glorfindel, Aragorn, BOTWT for example it suddenly means they can use all their fate in one turn to stop a wound (of which they onlt take 1 or 2 a turn). I use it in conjunction with Elrond whose Fate re-roll means he basically has 6 fate per turn add that t F6 A3 D7 and W3 and he refuses to go down. Its got better recently because Lindir now gives Elrond will regen so he can use Renew more meaning he has 6 chances to win a 50/50 roll off and even if he fails he can regen the wound on a +3. For a 20-30pts upgrade it can really throw the game in your favour
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 Post subject: Re: If you could change one character or rule............
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:41 am 
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Why did you have half their points? That seems like a really extreme example.....

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 Post subject: Re: If you could change one character or rule............
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:55 am 
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It was our campaign and without that stupid mirror I'd still have won

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 Post subject: Re: If you could change one character or rule............
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:21 am 
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You make a good point ElfGeneral. I must have been thinking of the old profile or models with 1 fate only and lots of troops (and therefore needing the extra points to make things balanced).

It does basically force you into an all hero army though, which im not too sure about. I cant seem to make a list that I like with it that uses troops as well. Maybe 1, Galadriel, 8 Galadhrim Guard, 6 High elves with shield, 1 with banner, Elladan & Elrohir - very dependent on terrain, but might do ok. 500 pts.

Now that I have said all that, I remember what I was going to say in the first place, that Galadriel's ring should do something other than give fate? Gandalf and Elrond get into combat a lot, so I can understand giving it to them, but surely there is something better for Galadriel than just giving her 6 fate each turn.

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 Post subject: Re: If you could change one character or rule............
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:47 am 
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I don't like how almost every model now has to have a special rule. There are too many of them. Bodyguard was fair enough but the boundaries just keep getting pushed out.

Named characters of special importance should have special rules, that's why they are special. So yes give Lurtz a bow rule (even just a higher strength bow), make Theoden a banner to his people or increase the fight of those around him, something that shows he was beloved of his people.

But rank and file troops should be just that.

I also don't like the way special strikes work so I'd review that.

But mostly I'd review the points costs of all models. There are so many comments on this site about models being under or over costed. Surely this needs to be dealt with.

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 Post subject: Re: If you could change one character or rule............
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:34 pm 
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Hodush wrote:
You make a good point ElfGeneral. I must have been thinking of the old profile or models with 1 fate only and lots of troops (and therefore needing the extra points to make things balanced).

It does basically force you into an all hero army though, which im not too sure about. I cant seem to make a list that I like with it that uses troops as well. Maybe 1, Galadriel, 8 Galadhrim Guard, 6 High elves with shield, 1 with banner, Elladan & Elrohir - very dependent on terrain, but might do ok. 500 pts.

Now that I have said all that, I remember what I was going to say in the first place, that Galadriel's ring should do something other than give fate? Gandalf and Elrond get into combat a lot, so I can understand giving it to them, but surely there is something better for Galadriel than just giving her 6 fate each turn.


Yeah, agree completely all true, it not for every situation scenarios where you have to move a lot it's pointless but it's really helpful in others. In a White Council list or any other all hero list it really comes into it's own. It's particularly nasty in those lists because of models like Erestor who has 3 will but is cheap he suddenly becomes really nasty with his to wound re-rolls.

I also really agree with her ring, I understand the three rings doing the same thing from a lore perspective and I always think that it + the mirror is like giving Galadriel heavy armour and your army fate regen for just over 20pts which isn't bad but I'd prefer it do something different. Maybe say it lets her cast one channelled spell a turn without expending a point of might, she has the same basic stats as the three wizards but they all have more spells and specialise in something and she's not that many points less than them so it would make her more unique.

All that being said you have to remember Galadriels war aspect that is really helped by being able to re-roll fate rolls given she can't take her mirror and is only D4
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 Post subject: Re: If you could change one character or rule............
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:40 am 
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I've been musing on my previous post and think if a model needs redoing it's Galadriel, Protectress of Lothlorien (War Form) as it is to weak and confused about what it purpose is.

I think this is best shown by her combat and support stats and rules.

On the combat front she has 3 in all the right places high fight, high courage, causes terror and fate re-rolls. Downside being she loses 3 will, her staff of power is only defence 4 (really!!) and arguable her two best spells

On the Support front she gains War Aspect (-1 to enemy courage) and keeps blinding light. Downside being as above she loses her two other support spells and the majority of her casting ability and that her F value is one less than the other combat focused elf rulers. Also she STRENGTH 3 she supposed to be the embodiment of one of the most powerful beings in Middle Earth going full HULK SMASH on someone and she has the same strength as an orc?.

To me it seems like they tried to make her a jack of all trades making her a combat beast but maintaining her previous support role but for her points she just isn't good enough at either only Str 3 D4 and no option for a horse is just to weak to compete with heroes like Dwalin at 25pts less. As for support blinding light is nice but more spells would be great and War aspect in a white council list or paired with Thranduil

The good news on this front is with her presence in the next film all but assured and the switch (with Tauriel) to women being Str4 it looks likely we may get a new profile and GW has had a few years to work out what is right and wrong with the current rules and characters like Balin so their willing to make drastic changes so fingers crossed.

He suugestion would be as follow
Galadriel War Form - 160pts?
F7,S4(5),D6(7),A3,W3,C7 M3/W3/F3

Terror, War Aspect, Nenya, Woodland Creature

Spells
Blinding light 2+
Aura of Dismay 4+

Reason being War aspect and Aura of Dismay have a good synergy and added blinding light should really add to a warband of troops. The reason there are two stats for strength and defence is I feel she should have one that is higher than usual as she is supposed to be funnelling her magical energy that would have given her free will every turn into maintaining her war form so she should be able to buff one of her stats above that of a normal hero but giving her both seemed overpowered so a final profile would have one of them
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 Post subject: Re: If you could change one character or rule............
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:21 pm 
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i would give moria goblins fearful rule being near the belrog gives them +1 fight but -1 courage XD
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 Post subject: Re: If you could change one character or rule............
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:42 pm 
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On the question of Lurtz, the best quick fix is to just use Vrasku's profile with Lurtz' model. To me Vrasku seems like what Lurtz should be.

I would give Eowyn an extra attack and immunity to "Harbinger of Evil" and +1 to wound wraiths and fell beasts. I also like the idea of making her an independent hero- she shouldn't lead troops thematically.

I think there are a lot of models that need tweaking- the rules get updated but the stats and costs don't. That's the problem.

As far as rules are concerned I'd scrap piercing strike. I think it's pure cheese. I'd also force people to use the special strikes appropriate to the manufactured state of the model they use, and not allow "conversions" to... lets be honest here: axes.

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 Post subject: Re: If you could change one character or rule............
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:41 pm 
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Well then what do you suggest for axes? Theres no way a sword should have a special strike in my opinion compared to a much more daunting weapon like an axe.

What about this:
You select piercing strike. You roll a die. On a 4,5,6, you add +1 to damage. On a 1,2,3, your defense is -1.

And what would your suggested points value be for Eowyn. I do believe thematically yeah, she shouldnt. But I think they did that to make the game safer for Rohan players.

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 Post subject: Re: If you could change one character or rule............
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:14 pm 
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I've always thought that Glorfindel should have some rule reflecting his inner light. Something like the harbinger of evil rule (harbinger of light?), even if it only affects spirits. Heck, even the ringwraiths feared him and it would be cool if he reflected that, even if he is pretty good at the moment anyway.
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 Post subject: Re: If you could change one character or rule............
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:16 pm 
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LordoftheBrownRing wrote:
Well then what do you suggest for axes? Theres no way a sword should have a special strike in my opinion compared to a much more daunting weapon like an axe.

What about this:
You select piercing strike. You roll a die. On a 4,5,6, you add +1 to damage. On a 1,2,3, your defense is -1.

And what would your suggested points value be for Eowyn. I do believe thematically yeah, she shouldnt. But I think they did that to make the game safer for Rohan players.


No, I hate extra rolls. Whatever bonuses and penalties a weapon has should be fixed. It makes the game quicker and easier.

Just like a two handed weapon. You know exactly what you're getting and you get on with it.

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