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 Post subject: Tolkien saw it coming
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:00 pm 
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Fellowship of the Ring Page 299
Frodo is talking to Gloin
"I will come and see them if ever I can," said Frodo. "How surprised Bilbo would have been to see all the changes in the Desolation of Smaug!"
I laughed my head off when I saw this. :rofl:

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Last edited by VandalCabbage on Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Tolkien saw it coming
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:12 pm 
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HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Nice find!

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 Post subject: Re: Tolkien saw it coming
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:50 pm 
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haha!

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 Post subject: Re: Tolkien saw it coming
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:28 pm 
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Brilliant find :)

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 Post subject: Re: Tolkien saw it coming
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:00 am 
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That'll give the purists a headache hahah

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 Post subject: Re: Tolkien saw it coming
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:12 am 
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hahaha lol

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 Post subject: Re: Tolkien saw it coming
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:40 pm 
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Oh boy... Changes indeed there were! :(

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 Post subject: Re: Tolkien saw it coming
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:42 pm 
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Two smilies: :-D :yay:
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 Post subject: Re: Tolkien saw it coming
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:37 pm 
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Haha yes! I saw that a week or so ago on the "other" One Ring and laughed out loud! Absolutely hilarious! :rofl: :-D Obviously a few people have noticed that page in FotR :)

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 Post subject: Re: Tolkien saw it coming
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:46 pm 
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Ok, I'm still clueless. Would someone please enlighten me?

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 Post subject: Re: Tolkien saw it coming
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:02 pm 
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Yeah, I don't get it either. Come see what?

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 Post subject: Re: Tolkien saw it coming
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:15 am 
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its the missing quotation mark after "desolation of Smaug!" that i think is throwing you two off :P Frodo literally says "How surprised Bilbo would have been to see all the changes in the Desolation of Smaug!" . It's humorous because of all the changes that were actually made in the movie DoS, and act as a sort of unintentional (unless Tolkien had the gift of foresight) foreshadowing of PJ's many changes.
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 Post subject: Re: Tolkien saw it coming
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:58 am 
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Ahhh, thank you Shadowandflame

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 Post subject: Re: Tolkien saw it coming
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:42 pm 
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Shadowandflame wrote:
It's humorous because of all the changes that were actually made in the movie DoS, and act as a sort of unintentional (unless Tolkien had the gift of foresight) foreshadowing of PJ's many changes.


I'm pretty sure he knew exactly that a film director would (have to?) make many major changes to his well-thought out story and would, for the sake of marketability, screw up any deeper messages Tolkien intended his books to carry. Which probably was why Tolkien resisted any attempts at making movies out of his books for as long as he lived. How right he was, IMO. :kitten:

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 Post subject: Re: Tolkien saw it coming
PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:14 am 
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But there's a difference between the majority of changes to the LoTR films, which I was mostly fine with and were there for convenience's sake, and the Changes to the hobbit films. In LOTR, the only problems I had with changes were the Elves at Helm's deep and the army of the dead. Just look at the scene where Gandalf is comforting Pippin when the Troll is hammering the door in ROtK. How is that screwing up his deeper messages? Or sam's speech to Frodo at the end of The Two Towers - really good capture of Tolkien's spirit I thought.

Whereas the hobbit has added Azog's storyline to the films, created Tauriel for no good reason WHATSOEVER apart from "we need a girl". Compare her to Eowyn and Galadriel and you realise how sexist Tauriel is, always mooning over Legolas and Kili.
The plot has had major changes - action added in for its own sake, but in a tasteless manner. I liked the film but I felt it could have been as good of an adaption as LOTR but failed. The film's superficial failures (CGI orcs which look cartoony) cover up its fundamental failures (why on earth does Legolas get more than a cameo?)

Hobbit- Mega Changes, Decent Film
LoTR - Few Changes, Exceptionally Great Film.
Corrolation PJ!

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 Post subject: Re: Tolkien saw it coming
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:44 pm 
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VandalCabbage wrote:
But there's a difference between the majority of changes to the LoTR films, which I was mostly fine with and were there for convenience's sake, and the Changes to the hobbit films. In LOTR, the only problems I had with changes were the Elves at Helm's deep and the army of the dead. Just look at the scene where Gandalf is comforting Pippin when the Troll is hammering the door in ROtK. How is that screwing up his deeper messages? Or sam's speech to Frodo at the end of The Two Towers - really good capture of Tolkien's spirit I thought.

Whereas the hobbit has added Azog's storyline to the films, created Tauriel for no good reason WHATSOEVER apart from "we need a girl". Compare her to Eowyn and Galadriel and you realise how sexist Tauriel is, always mooning over Legolas and Kili.
The plot has had major changes - action added in for its own sake, but in a tasteless manner. I liked the film but I felt it could have been as good of an adaption as LOTR but failed. The film's superficial failures (CGI orcs which look cartoony) cover up its fundamental failures (why on earth does Legolas get more than a cameo?)

Hobbit- Mega Changes, Decent Film
LoTR - Few Changes, Exceptionally Great Film.
Corrolation PJ!


Actually I was more annoyed by Legolas in Lotr and the Hobbit. His skateboarding and Mumak Killing...
I liked Tauriel i prefer seeing her in it than Legolas. And i'd take her role over Arwen's anyday. Arwen's a wet rag in the movies.
But overall i'd say the wood elf additions could've been dumped and limited to a Legolas cameo at the court.
Azog's addition and the Necromancer part on the other hand is a positive element in my eyes.
But the Hobbit does have a very different vibe. Much more flash and less substance. Then again the Hobbit is a bizarre beast that lives an odd life in between children's book and adult's novel.
So the base material in itself is already something odd.

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 Post subject: Re: Tolkien saw it coming
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:57 pm 
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Yeah Arwen's weak, but she is the exception. Eowyn(kills the witch-king), Galadriel(runs a country, her hubbie is barely mentioned), even Lobelia (utterly fearless) - all are three dimensional characters. Tauriel has "I like Legolas/ I like short guys".

Have you seen X-Men: First Class? Wolverine had a short (and not very polite to poor Prof. X) cameo in that and it worked wonderfully. If Legolas had gotten that in this film it would have been great.
Maybe I'm being too harsh on the Azog thing; alone it would be tolerable but with everything else being changed it just doesn't work for me. The Necromancer on the other hand was one of my favourite scenes in the film. The more flash thing is my entire problem - it doesn't fit well with the original trilogy. If anything there should be less of an emphasis on violence and more on character. The two best things they've done are Thorin's character arc and the overall acting quality and both are great, so maybe its not all bad...
The Hobbit is much more of a children's book than a older book in my eyes. But that doesn't mean it lacks meaning. Like the Chronicles of Narnia, it's a kid book that you don't grow out of, but grow up with.

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 Post subject: Re: Tolkien saw it coming
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:24 pm 
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VandalCabbage wrote:
Yeah Arwen's weak, but she is the exception. Eowyn(kills the witch-king), Galadriel(runs a country, her hubbie is barely mentioned), even Lobelia (utterly fearless) - all are three dimensional characters. Tauriel has "I like Legolas/ I like short guys".

Have you seen X-Men: First Class? Wolverine had a short (and not very polite to poor Prof. X) cameo in that and it worked wonderfully. If Legolas had gotten that in this film it would have been great.
Maybe I'm being too harsh on the Azog thing; alone it would be tolerable but with everything else being changed it just doesn't work for me. The Necromancer on the other hand was one of my favourite scenes in the film. The more flash thing is my entire problem - it doesn't fit well with the original trilogy. If anything there should be less of an emphasis on violence and more on character. The two best things they've done are Thorin's character arc and the overall acting quality and both are great, so maybe its not all bad...
The Hobbit is much more of a children's book than a older book in my eyes. But that doesn't mean it lacks meaning. Like the Chronicles of Narnia, it's a kid book that you don't grow out of, but grow up with.


Oh don't get me wrong I don't dislike the Hobbit. Heck i reread it a while ago. But it is... an unusual beast.
And in its normal form it would not work on screen. But then again it doesn't really work as it is done now.
I like the movies in itself but they're not lotr. And i'm afraid that is also in part due to the nature of the Hobbit...but also the ridiculous choice of making 3 movies.

...2 at max had been more than enough.
Take the hobbit. Show the battle of five armies in detail and add in the Necromancer arc which did indeed take place during the Hobbit but happened like the battle mostly 'offscreen'. Enough for 1 extremely long movie or 2 movies. But that's that.

On the plus side i'm super happy the dwarves finally got some time.
The lotr movies turned Gimli, one of my favourite chars into a joke. And so far like you said Thorin has been tackled well. I just hope they keep it up!

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 Post subject: Re: Tolkien saw it coming
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:33 am 
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I don't mind Legolas being a major character in the Hobbit. Tolkien didn't invent him at the time but considering he is the Prince of Mirkwood I think he would definitely have had a role in Thraundil's conflicts. Although i was never keen on Tauriel.
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 Post subject: Re: Tolkien saw it coming
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 7:31 pm 
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I'm way, way behind the rest of the site, but I only just saw the Desolation of Smaug for the first time last night. I don't know how to feel about it. I figured I'd post some thoughts here rather than revive an even older thread or start a new one.

The filmography in the beginning of the film is pretty sloppy. Scenes seemed poorly edited, some shots seemed to drag on a bit too long or were totally unnecessary, and transitions were pretty weak. Pacing was also a bit off. This improved considerably by the end of the film.

The dialogue was also pretty bad. Many of Tauriel's, Beorn's, or Kili's lines are cringe-worthy. Many lines seem lifted from LotR or even AUJ. The score, while good, also seemed incredibly off. Like the dialogue, the music gave each little bit of the film an over-inflated sense of importance. Music that didn't exactly fit the scene played loudly over dialogue. The visuals and score often gave a conflicting mood.

I mentioned this with AUJ, but if they were going to use this much CGI, they might as well have made the Hobbit trilogy animated like Beowulf.

Benedict Cumberbatch was fantastic as Smaug, as was Freeman as Bilbo. Sherlock duo in Middle-earth :) I like having Legolas in this movie; I also like Tauriel.

I think the biggest takeaway from DoS for me, however, is that it's very obvious that The Hobbit by itself would have been a poor film. The disjointed transitions would have been more pronounced; the group would have sloppily moved from vignette to vignette with no character development whatsoever. It's a good story to tell to children as a birthday party, but not a good movie. I think PJ and co. have done good for what they had to work with, but I see so much room for improvement.

I give it a...6/10? Maybe?

I used to care about being extremely faithful to the books; I think that Tolkien would've cared as well. But I also see Tolkien as offering his Middle-earth to the British people as a British mythology in the same vein of Norse mythology or Greek mythology. In that way, Middle-earth (etc) belongs to the British people, and can therefore be more malleable than other rigid franchises.
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