I don't care about those wolves.. well, I do, but they're not relevant (sorry guys).

Rules state the following:
-When a model enters the control zone of an enemy model, he has to charge it (end his move in base contact).
-Once in base contact, neither model may move on.
-A model may charge multiple foes when he has enough movement left. Note also how it says that subsequent control zones are ignored - if moving a model in the most direct fashion in contact with two enemies (straight on after entering a control zone), he will always enter both zones at the same time, so unless you could move through, this is not necessary. (< could make a quick diagram if required...)

~A model 'slipping past' enters a control zone and charges that enemy model.
(Doesn't move directly in contact, but the rules don't state it has to)
~A model 'slipping past' stops moving when in contact with the enemy model.
~Assuming enough movement is left, the model walks on a bit in the control zone, and as said, ends up in base contact - as required.

At what point in that movement does the charging model do anything it shouldn't be able to do according to the rules?

And to clarify, I don't care how you play it, whether you like it that way and how wolves hunt (well, I do, but [...]). As with the Treebeard forest movement thread, you can play it however you want, but when playing in accordance to the rules, charges such as those described earlier simply are perfectly legal.

I have never misunderstood what you guys were saying. I have no problem switching glasses and seeing why you play how you have. It just for whatever reason did not ever occur to me and I have never played it that way. Thus, it seams wrong. I also stated that I don't have a GW near me that I could have played a game in which a staffer would perhaps play it that way or explain it that way. I have never tried inserting different words into the rules text, nor have I ever seen a single person ever slip around in a game, this week was the first in 13 years that I have heard about it. So forgive my ignorance, I think that makes for a solid foundation of cynicism.

I am a good sport, I would love to play a few matches and see how this way goes, but having never played it that way and knowing my opponents, I can see a lot of major problems occurring with this slight change. A huge one I see is how it can be used to slip around someone in the guise of combat and then after the combat make a break for the board edge or objective. I do realize that this may be part of the fun you guys have been dealing with, but I play with more than one guy who measures 7" on a 6" move and I may never catch up to them or vice versa stay ahead of them to get where I am going. I always thought that one Kick-A dude could hold back s small wave of a few guys keeping them from getting across, but now I think that he will be taken down faster than a snowball in a desert. I have never had a problem understanding why people would do the slip past (as it doesn't say you cannot) and I definitely see how it can be used to mess up a hero's day, I can also now see why so many people quickly will say "you don't have enough models in your force" in army sections, as small elite filled forces would quickly be put to test with this adjustment.

All of your arguments do make perfect sense.

It actually puts a lot more emphasis on counter charges as opposed to the priority charge playing my way. Both ways still result in many multiple combats, but my way allows for smaller forces and heroes to be more effective on their own without being trapped every turn.
I will have to try it out, though I wish it was with someone who already plays the way you describe as I will most likely forget to try it out in the fun of playing.

I care how other's play. If half the people in the SBG world are playing one way and half another, it doesn't make for a solid stance for our game. We may as well all pack out stuff and bust out Warhammer.

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So, it seems that we can agree that 'sliding charges' are legal. However, like any other rule, you can play it however you want with your group as long as everyone agrees. And arguing one way over the other is pointless.

First, I wouldn't put much credit in a rule interpretation at a local GW, or feel like you are "missing" anything not having such a store nearby to ask. We don't have one for a couple hours drive (and I've never bothered to make that drive) either. After about seven years on this community I have come to realize from posts here that most GW store employees and managers know the WH/40K systems but don't provide any more validity to interpreting SBG / WotR rules than your buddy...and if your buddy has played more than two games then he probably knows better anyway. It's just not a system that MOST of the store staff seem experienced in (sadly I've heard the same about GW tournament judges...not very SBG familiar at times).

The 'sliding' charge is very easy to justify in ‘reality’ as the first person to engage the foe simply works around him in the initial stage of the fight allowing his companions better charges. But likewise there is no facing of our models in SBG so it’s a moot point.

I wouldn't agree that this has any limiting factor on playing Hero or Monster forces. Those units are usually able to take on larger numbers of individual models to begin with, and often have enough Fight and Attacks (and even Might if needed) to handle themselves. Many cause Terror (and typically at least some charging models will fail). And a player should be doing their best to support those key models whenever possible as well. You don't need to block enemy from sliding around but it's good to have models ready to counter charge and pull one or more surrounding models off. I often play with higher point Heroes, Ents, Eagles, Trolls and Spider Queens (rarely ever play anything close to a horde force), not to mention cavalry, and the ability to 'slide' on the charge has never been something that played any greater role in a game than any other factor.

As with many rules that are either new or newly clarified it may seem like a bigger deal than it really is. As an isolated game group you are able to play any way you want but I would guess that if you switched over to this then after half dozen games perhaps it wouldn't be a big deal any more. There will always be an event in every game where a particular tactic or rule had a major impact at the micro level. Every time my Mumuk has to stampede in WotR the random roll will point it perfectly at the bulk of my forces and it will go through the maximum possible. In about 75% of my games with my Wood Elf army, Legolas will blow his Courage Test if we’re broken…every other model will nail it but he decides to head home before his hair gets messed up any more. A Monstrous Attack or a special weapon rule will result in an above-expectation result. Or three Orcs will surround and kill Gandalf. The point is that at the macro level you will typically find these are all non-events. If you focus on these occurrences you may think they are actually having a bigger impact than they really do.

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Whenever people talk about sbg rules being 'unrealistic' I find that there is almost always a way for a player to avoid their issue with the rules so that it never comes up. In this instance just play with a pike/spear block; your enemies will have no room to 'slide around' all but your models but the flanks.

I also don't really see how it is that unrealistic. The logic for 'sliding' is that it can only be done when there is adequate room for multiple models to work their way around an enemy, we see stuff like this happen everywhere (the riders of rohan surrounding the three hunters, soldiers/assorted bar scum surrounding wolverine, filthy lannister scum surrounding Ned etc) so it really doesn't break any sense of realism the game has.

Well, the only reason it never came up in game is not that it couldn't, it is that anything that we thought was against the rules was never done, so that is why it was never done and out of thought as an option.
I looked through all my rulebooks and in all 2 examples of move into charge show direct shots ignoring other control zones once breaking the first. It is not that they could not slide around, but they didn't in any example in the book. Also there is not a single example anywhere in any rulebook of sliding around. So, how would you assume that everyone knows this is ok to do when they clearly show enter a zone, move direct into contact.
Again I do understand where you are coming from, but I just never thought about it in the rules.
Your example are horrible though lol. I would never allow a person to start dancing around with me in the thick of battle while his buddies come running up... no, you enter my reach (control zone) and we are clashing (in touch) immediately because I am desperate to get back to my mates.
Wolverine is a poor tactician, he can't be killed so he baits you in close. Aragorn was not trying to fight, in all other battles Aragorn goes in swinging from the start.

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Just a quick question regarding this sliding, is it allowed even if that sliding model has to pass through another control zone to get to the rear/side?

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In theory yes because once in base contact with first model doesn't he then ignore other cz's?

Hmmm

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But moving in to base contact immediately ends his movement.

As far as I understand it, it's legal to get in your target model's control zone, and then move in to b2b contact along a convoluted route (Sliding around). You don't close with the target model, and then slide around his base while in contact. Pretty sure the rules expressly state that getting in to b2b contact ends your movement.

As long as you entered the target model's CZ first, he is then free to ignore the CZ of other models.

However, presumably, if an allied model has already closed with the target model (thus neutralising its control zone) he would NOT be allowed to ignore another enemy model's control zone to "slide around" the target model.

Or something….

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Sorry but I don't agree with this sliding move at all.
It's called a control zone, as in that model controls that area around it!
The rules say it can not be passed through unless the model is engaged in combat.
Entering a models control zone does not mean it is in combat, making base contact means it is in combat.
So 1) if you enter the control zone the only movement you can then make is direct base contact, you don't have the freedom to dance around the model as it is still his control zone until base contact is made.
And 2) if base contact is made you still can't dance round the model because making contact ends the move.

Once a model is charged it looses it's control zone so then you can make contact wherever you like as long as you have enough movement left.

You guys should listen to me! My dad is Mr Gary Gamesworkshop. He owns the entire company so I know what I'm on about.
I'm kind of a big deal!

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This ^^

The way it is played in the GBHL is sliding. That is how it is played and everyone accepts that. If you want to play it different, go for it.

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Just because a certain group plays that way does not mean that is the correct way to play!
Personally I find it an unacceptable gaming tactic. I have taken the matter to my local gaming league, the doc death middle earth destroyers, and an unamious conclusion was made that there is no solid basis for this kind of underhand gaming. Their words, not mine!
If you can find a specific passage in the rules, or an illustration that clearly shows that this movies permitted then I will gladly accept it, after all it would be of great benefit to me.

Until such evidence is provided all I can say is come at me bro!!!

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I'm afraid you cannot use this as an argument, because surely then the Undying could not be killed in the game, Orc Trackers could see the tracks were a Hobbit had walked before, the Betrayer would backstab his buddies etc etc etc..? I'm not trying to offend by making this ridiculous comparison, but interpreting a rule by it's name is not going to help us.


True, and everyone agreed.


Again true, no one has said otherwise.

(Emphasis mine.)
This is were it gets tricky. I've never read the words that a model has to go directly into base-contact. Could you please give us a quote?


About this I very much agree.


The point people have been trying to make in this topic is that nowhere in the rules it says you have to move directly into base-contact. If this is not needed, than you can indeed use the sliding tactic, as others have explained before me.

There is no place in the rules where it deals with this question directly. However, are there any places in the rules that you can find that say you cannot do this?

Also, I have played rules wrong before. So even if your gaming group says something, that really doesn't matter to me. The GBHL gaming group says something different than yours. Who's right?

Even if you are wrong, you can still continue to play without sliding. Like I said before, it's up to the group to decide what rules they will play with.

I hope I didn't come across as attacking you, but I truly believe that there is nothing in the rules preventing 'sliding charges'. Play how you will though.

The whole argument opposing 'sliding' is based on moving directly in base contact upon entering the control zone. That is not necessary, as shown by the fact that models may move on upon entering a control zone to charge another enemy model (in addition to the one whose control zone was entered, who obviously has to be charged).


Surely, you do see the irony there...

P22 pic 6 - blah blah.... he is free to continue moving WITHIN that control zone, as long as he ends up in base contact with the model whose zone he entered first......

Sliding as you guys call it IS allowed as long as the charger has enough move left to "slide" around

Sweet, that's all I was asking for! A reference to back up these claims. Cheers for that. Is so much simpler when people provide clear evidence to support their statements rather than reasoning on the ifs and buts!

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Pg 22 of the EFGT Hobbit Rulebook. The example box Fig.6. Model is free to continue to move within the control zone of the model he has charged but must end their move in base contact with that model. (Paraphrased)

I should have read the rules properly myself, but the thread has cleared up a few things for some people at least.

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I re read the page 23 as referenced earlier and it does seem to be fair to have a sliding charge as shown. As long as there is plenty of actual movement available to the charging model.

This is a great thread.. I learnt more because of it.. thanks everyone.

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