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 Post subject: Re: Thermo's 500pt All Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:26 am 
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whafrog wrote:
Hi Thermo, just a reminder: a little less quoting per post would be great. People on mobile devices have to do a lot of scrolling...


Sorry whafrog, using a phone myself and getting such good and extensive answers that it helps me keep up with which point I'm answering and who made it! Will try limit it in future.

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 Post subject: Re: Thermo's 500pt All Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:51 pm 
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Yep, the primary reason I go to tourneys is to get to play against players/armies/models I don't normally have access to, it's great fun and there's a real joy to be found in finding an effective list that can deal with multiple opponents. I'm also a massive fan of the whole-weekend tournaments, the first night evening shenanigans are always a good laugh and worth the cost of a B&B!


I'm gutted I won't be able to stay Saturday afternoon! But next year when I'm into the swing of it, will do a few stay overs at the tournaments down south and beyond! More one day tournaments would suit me, being self employed, taking a whole weekend off is tough tough tough! But I can see a mixture of the two would be good.

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There's one player who generally turns up with pure named Ringwraiths on Fell Beasts (6 @ 1000 points, 4 @750 points and as Marsbar says, 2/3 at 500 points). and they're absolutely horrific. It's quite easy to build an effective list that would have a good chance against them but that's a list that wouldn't do well against other 'standard' armies, thus, in tournaments the Fell Beasts find themselves up against a selection of standard armies that simply can't cope with their power. They were good before the Hobbit rules but they're nigh on unstoppable now thanks to the new monster rules. The fact that these are doubled up with the rules for monstrous cavalry (which is now just an extra set of special rules for Fell Beasts!) makes the situation even worse. It's an incredibly tough army to beat and, in my experience, not much fun as there's so little you can do.

Get the wraiths off their Fell Beasts though and the game's yours...


Does sound nasty, not the best opponent for an all cavalry Rohan force... all those thrown riders, no magic etc but we will see. Must look pretty cool on the table though?
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I wouldn't necessarily look out for metagamers so much as meta-armies, the vast majority of competitive players at the top of the league are really nice chaps who play a good, fun game.

The meta-armies you need to look out for are (broadly):

Wood elves led by Thranduil, Leggy, and Stormcallers

Moria hordes with Gundabad front line, spears behind, Shade, Groblog, Shamans

Nasty Harad builds with lots of archers/Watchers of Karna, Reavers and the Shadow Lord

Anything with Saruman the White/Saruman and Grima

They're the ones I would personally not want to face, very tough lists.


Nasty harad build is something I've looked into for the future I must say, but for now, first force nearly finished with the painting is Rohan, so will give it my best bash! Who else takes Rohan to the tourneys and how do they get on?

Quote:
Special mention to Marsbar on this actually, he's turned up to a couple of tourneys this year with cool, fun monster lists that are actually very competitive. I've played him twice with my ferals and had disproportionately good results against them as I think I had a good army to beat them. I must say though, his monster list and another one at the last tourney (Charles' Marsbar) are actually quite intimidating to face with the new monster rules. It's fairly easy to bring one or two big gribblies down but when there's about 8 of them (@750 points) charging at you supported by the damn Dwimmerlaik (the bane of monster killers!) it's quite tough!


Knighty brought something similar against me and Hashut once... a bunch of trolls and shadow lord/dwimmerlaik... was very much an anti-me list! So we just focused on taking out his ally, Ste with his Isengard... I'm glad he never managed to get to grips with us in the game!

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Magic can be a game-winner in the right hands, the common mistake new gamers make it to always try and kill with magic (Sorcerous Blast, Black Dart etc.) when in fact the real game changing spells are the ones that allow you to gain a better position/advantage over the enemy (Immobilise/Tremor/Nature's Wrath/Command etc.)


Good tips... thinking of including a mounted wizard when I bump up to 750pts plus with the rohan... eagle too.


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I think most of the Northerners are primarily Last Alliance users and only pop up on here from time to time, post a message on the Facebook Group if you're curious, they're all on there and they'll let you know who're nearby in Stockport.


I keep trying, not much luck yet!

Great tips on the heroic combat, will note them down and try find some situations to get it practiced!

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 Post subject: Re: Thermo's 500pt All Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:50 pm 
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Oh if you think monsters are cool y'all gonna love my new list :p

Also there is little enjoyment in facing a wraith army - keep a TO nearby when you go up against one because rules queries will come up, and every little thing counts against wraiths.
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 Post subject: Re: Thermo's 500pt All Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:12 pm 
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@Suicidal Marsbar - Has anybody ever brought an all eagles list for fun? Wonder how that would get on? Shame they don't get the knockdown on the charge, seems a bit... odd! Beautiful models. Treating myself to painting that bad boy when the Rohirrim foot models are complete.

Do we ever see Treebeard on any of the good lists either? Seems like he is a bit of a tank. I understand it makes it tougher to include troops unless you're doing a wanderers list but curious as to whether anyone brings him.

Regarding facing Wraith armies, I'm guessing best counter is a Wizard, or something with panic steeds, natures wrath, sorcerous blasts etc? Knock them off the fell beasts? What kind of rule queries tend to come up?

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 Post subject: Re: Thermo's 500pt All Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:55 pm 
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Thermo wrote:
Must look pretty cool on the table though?


It does, the first couple of times...

Thermo wrote:
Who else takes Rohan to the tourneys and how do they get on?


They're not all that common, Gondor tends to be the dominant Kingdoms of Men list. I've tried them a couple of times, at doubles last year we took 1000 points pure Rohan half infantry and half cavalry, got on pretty well actually, won 3/6 games which was far more than we expected. However, at this year's doubles we took 650 mounted Rohan + mounted Radagast + 2 eagles. It was arguably a stronger list but it only won 2/5 games. I think we simply came up against opponents better suited to beating us (wizards to dismount, cavalry to neuter charge bonus, hordes to swamp us etc.) including the thrice cursed Fell Beasts. Damian from this forum often runs Rohan although I think he'd be the first to admit he games for fun and theme rather than competitiveness. Ultimately you have to make your choice, they are an absolutely gorgeous looking army on the table but they just can't compete with sturdy tournament lists unless you start to involve allies at which point it stops being a Rohan list.

Thermo wrote:
Has anybody ever brought an all eagles list for fun?


There was one at Throne of Skulls this year, something like Radagast on Sleigh, 8 eagles and Balin (he had no Might on the eagles so needed Balin to make up for the lack of Heroics). Not honestly sure how it got on, 8 monsters and a wizard would certainly be effective but without Might you should be able to get a jump on them with Heroics and eventually their 2 attacks will let them down and you can make a nice pie.

Thermo wrote:
Do we ever see Treebeard on any of the good lists either?


Yeah he's quite common actually, he's an absolute tank and far better than a normal ent due to his 6 Will which make him fairly resistant to magic and his Might which allows him to top up that five when he eventually fluffs his Fight rolls. Not sure I'd run him myself as he's such a points sink but he's definitely worth a go (quite a nice ally for Rohan too!)

Thermo wrote:
I'm guessing best counter is a Wizard, or something with panic steeds, natures wrath, sorcerous blasts etc? Knock them off the fell beasts? What kind of rule queries tend to come up?


Yeah you'll want wizards, not to Blast but to Immobilise thus neutering the wraiths and making them easy to kill in combat or drawing Will from them to resist giving them less offensive options. Nature's Wrath and Panic Steed are excellent though. The other power of wizards is that their staffs mean they can keep casting even after the inevitable sap wills.

You'll need lots of Might as you absolutely need Priority to stop the Fell Beasts charging and the wraiths casting - the one big weakness of the list is it's lack of Might (normally 2 per wraith) so anything to help with that would be handy (think Saruman's Palantir, Balin etc.).

Troops with bodyguard are key as they don't need to take courage tests (with a -1 mod) for charging so you can gaurantee to charge and trap the monsters.

You also need F7+ to beat them in combat, this is again where the eagles would excel for you but Might is also handy for all the Heroic Strikes.

Rohan are actually pretty good at all these things to be honest, if chosen with the right heroes I think they could put up a pretty decent fight.

Ultimately there's any number of lists that can be built to deal with them but at 750 (so facing 4 wraiths) I reckon the following would have a good shot:

Radagast
2 eagles
Saruman the White
Erkenbrand
Eomer KOTP
Eowyn
Theoden D7
15 Royal Guard

Something like that might have a pretty decent crack and be around 750. If you mount all the rohan it increases their chances of being able to catch the wraiths although of course it also makes them a liability for Hurls.

As for what rules come up there's an awful lot, imagine you have multiple wizards all of whom have their own complicated special rules on monsters that count as cavalry charging and casting spells and then using the monster attacks in combat it all just gets a bit muddled. You have to have a really good knowledge of ringwraiths, their spells and the monster rules to stay on top of what's going on.

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 Post subject: Re: Thermo's 500pt All Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:44 pm 
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It's sounds like you're all sick of the sight of these Wraith on Fellbeast armies... bad experience?

It's a little sad to hear Rohan are underused but I completely understand, they aren't straightforward to play with and the game constantly feels like it's in the balance when I've played with them.

It's also interesting to see your experience with them in tournaments, and how we have similar ideas for growing the list, with Radagast, eagles etc. Something I personally am very keen on... To the point of considering dropping a warband and Eomer and taking something like this for more diversity.

Erkenbrand (Horse)
2 x SoE
4 x RRG mounted with Throwing Spears
3 x Outriders mounted

Radagast (Horse)
Eagle

But just playing in my mind, not necessarily serious!

As is an Eagles list if I had the luxury. Lovely models and if you deal with the might issue, could be very fun to play with.

1000pts

Radagast Mounted
6 Eagles
Gamling Mounted
6 Mounted Rangers of the North

Magic, monsters, movement, might and might regeneration...

For now, I'll play for theme but deep down, I'm as competitive as the next guy, so bring on the future!

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 Post subject: Re: Thermo's 500pt All Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:54 pm 
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Did you mean for gamling to have his banner?
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 Post subject: Re: Thermo's 500pt All Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:01 pm 
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Except for gamling's banner only works on rohan heroes.

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 Post subject: Re: Thermo's 500pt All Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:17 pm 
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Quote:
keep a TO nearby when you go up against one

Could you explain plz ?
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 Post subject: Re: Thermo's 500pt All Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:29 pm 
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some players are a...little...rusty on the rules so to speak to challenge everything slightly ambiguos about the rulebook. Having a TO nearby keeps any rules queries short and also correct.

Also, cant remember if it was mentioned but I'll say it again anyway. Fellbeast armies are stupidly easy to counter if you know you'll be facing them but you'll (probably) struggle against a standard army and vice versa.

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 Post subject: Re: Thermo's 500pt All Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:04 pm 
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Best things to counter fellbeasts are Legolas, warriors with the bodyguard rule, and relatively magic resistant heroes.
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 Post subject: Re: Thermo's 500pt All Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:11 pm 
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Haha I wanted to know what a TO is actually. It is hard to follow you sometimes as english isn't my native language !
To deal with fellbeasts you may use two cheap warriors with shield and defend behind while you spread your other warriors away. You won't lose much and may delayed the wraith enough.
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 Post subject: Re: Thermo's 500pt All Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:13 pm 
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ahh ok. TO = Tournament Organiser/ official. Basically the guy in charge who has the final say on any disputed rulings.

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 Post subject: Re: Thermo's 500pt All Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:26 pm 
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Good point on Gamling's Banner SD, I'd completely missed that wording. Shame, that would have made for somer nice metagame!

But you get the idea :)

@SM&SD - All good anti-Ringwraith/Fellbeast advice.

What's everyone's thoughts on Outriders? I never used to include them in the all mounted Rohan but realised after a few games that it's very difficult to get all your cavalry into combat at the same time anyway, and inevitably, some riders end up in more of a supporting role, picking off enemy bowmen, lightly armed troops regardless. Same points as basic rider, for better shooting value/courage and a nice special rule considering the play style... thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Thermo's 500pt All Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:44 pm 
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Outriders are good for taking & holding empty objectives as they benefit from a heroes standfast wherever they are on the board.

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 Post subject: Re: Thermo's 500pt All Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:07 pm 
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Looks like I'm going to be buying those Outriders from GW new! Hard to find elsewhere.

I think I've just about picked everything else that I need for these army ideas thanks to the forum (ukfreddybear and armandhammer, thank you!)

@Dr Grant - Seen your WIP mate, wish I'd seen it before. Exactly the kind of thing I'm going for :) Already got myself some Radagasts sorted for the conversions, anyone have a finecast shadowfax/Gandalf to trade? Tips appreciated!

Want to see what it is like to play this kind of force... (for fun!)

Erkenbrand (Horse)
2 x SoE
4 x RRG mounted with Throwing Spears
3 x Outriders mounted

Radagast (Horse)
Eagle

= 500pts

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 Post subject: Re: Thermo's 500pt All Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:25 pm 
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I'm really looking forward to how this goes for you. I like your list evolution and am very keen on the Eomer version discussions.

Regarding Heroic Combat, it can be used to great effect by non-Cav as well. If you can squeeze 2 warriors and a solid Hero to surround a basic troop, call HC and win, you can now jump those forces into other Fights to increase your odds (or concentrate them again on another single opponent model). It's also very effective for Monster Heroes. When I've played both Troll Chief and Treebeard an Heroic Combat can be a great way to destroy even more enemy rank-and-file troops in a single turn. Charge a couple basic ones and call HC, then go after 2-3 more or a back-line Hero that didn't expect to face a Monster solo that turn.

Personally I try NEVER to spend Might on increasing a die roll unless it is absolutely critical to the win. Killing a major enemy Hero, getting final Priority, etc. But under most cases Might should be used for Mighty Things, IMO.

Good luck and keep us posted!

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 Post subject: Re: Thermo's 500pt All Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:29 pm 
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I'm looking forward to hopefully facing you at preston buddy :twisted: The dwarves of erebor/ crawle will march on preston and...probably do some awesome stuff while sucking at the same time.

Your latest list looks promising but a little short on numbers. Would be very easy, even for an elite army, to swarm and trap it.

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 Post subject: Re: Thermo's 500pt All Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:02 pm 
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SD your dwarf army is the one i am most scared of, 30 D7 warriors is a horror to think about.
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 Post subject: Re: Thermo's 500pt All Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:47 pm 
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Ooooh what you bringing Southy?

Looking forward to meeting you all at last. Almost been a year since I popped by to promote something else and ended up getting hooked in by you all and this hobby!

Totally agree with the numbers, definitely not a competitive consideration at that points level but might be fun to try with friends :) But definitely something ill include for 750pts.

Got a few games lined up next week with Jamie Giblin (The Newbie), Pete (Hashut's blessing), Ste, JT Noble (moriamadness) and Louis J Aplin so good chances to test everything discussed here. Hopefully the extra SoE and RRG arrive in time and better get ordering those outriders!

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