I’m struggling with two areas of the Middle-Earth with running water, as depicted by the Fellowship movie, where the water seems to flow in a rather mysterious way. The first is the Bywater mill, which the movie shows as an overshot mill (i.e. water flow is on top of the mill wheel, as seen in the photo below).



Yet, there is no sign of a dam or a mill pond anywhere. One would expect that the Bywater bridge, which Gandalf crosses in the small inset, would actually be a dam bridge, but the water level is the same on both sides. I would need to solve this conundrum of where the water comes from somehow for a future terrain project featuring the mill, the bridge, and the Bywater Pool. Any suggestions? Should I do a waterfall further upriver, with a mill race diverted at the top of the fall, or perhaps make a dam upriver, or maybe even depict the Bywater bridge as a some sort of a dam bridge? I’m kinda leaning towards having a waterfall upstream – that way the mill and the bridge will look like they did in the film.

The second peculiar water flow is with the aqueduct near the west gate of Moria, as seen in the pic below. Note that the aqueduct top seems to be visible in the lower right hand corner of the screenshot showing the Fellowship looking across the Watcher’s pool towards the Walls of Moria.



Now, the Watcher’s pool formed when Sirannon was dammed, and its water filled the shallow bowl-like valley beyond the Stair Falls (which, I assume, are depicted by the aqueduct in the Fellowship movie). Now, my question is: why is the top of the aqueduct at the same approximate level as the flood pool surface? Since Sirannon flowed through the shallow valley, there should be a cut in the western side of the valley rim allowing the water to escape – the top of the aqueduct should thus be much lower than the rim of the rocks circling the valley on the west side, and, presumably, there should be a dam blocking the cut. Instead of the top of the aqueduct, we should see the top of this makeshift dam in the lower screenshot. Another terrain project of mine will depict the valley as it was before the flooding. My idea is to set the aqueduct much lower, and have a gap in the circling rocks. What do you think?

Shouldn't the Watcher's lake empty eventually, as the lake is dammed and the aqueduct is constantly flowing water?

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Well, there's the stream at the northern edge of the lake, which, apparently, is the Sirannon flowing into the now-flooded valley. Whatever flows out via the aqueduct is replenished by the stream. It's just the placement of the aqueduct too high up which bothers me... if there were a dam at the western valley rim, logically the aqueduct should be below it. Stream pours water into the lake, it spills over the dam and into the aqueduct. Break the dam, and the lake is drained...

Didn't the water come from the Misty Mountains?

I noticed the overshot?undershot issue with the Bywater Mill when I started planning to build the Mill model. I did not notice the Viaduct because I had not planned to make one. I am going to place the mill at the edge of the table. I don't think most people will even notice.



I checked the Atlas of Middle Earth. The gate was originally 30 feet above the river bed. If the damn was broken the Pool would drain to the level of the riverbed. I assume the original level of the aqueduct. The pool seems to be about 1500 feet wide at the stairs and the falls. It is not clear how the pool is damned. I am not sure how much attention PJ paid to the map. The reference in AME refers to page 22 Pictures by J.R.R.Tolkien . I unfortunately do not own that book.
I am looking forward to see what you decide to do.

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"the same as a duck you must be made of wood"

In my scene, the mill will be quite centrally located (it will be on my model railroad rather than in a gaming terrain), so although not many would notice the overshot, some would - and I would myself be annoyed if that water did not have a logical origin. Well, that part is not fully planned yet anyway, so I have time to figure this out.

Similarly, the Moria / Khazad-dûm scene will be on my model railroad. The picture by JRRT himself is somewhat inconclusive; below is the relevant bit of the drawing:



There may or may not be a dam, but if so, then the cut across which the dam is built is very narrow indeed. If there is a dam, then the normal river level would be the top of the second waterfall. My solution most likely will be to place the aqueduct roughly at this level, and leave a cleft into the valley rim. I think PJ didn't think this fully through...

The Middle-Earth themed model railroad is still very much in planning stages, but at some point in the future I might start a thread over on the non-GW talent showcase forum showing the initial plans, and WIP photos once I've started the actual construction.

Thanks! I have not seen this photo before.



From memory, I can not find it, The Watcher some how created the pool. Could the watcher have plugged up the for aqueduct to create the pool? If so the plug would be under the water level. The Movie mill on the other hand looks nothing like Tolkien's drawings. I have considered building both Mills.
http://www.lotrscenerybuilder.org/hobbi ... ct_def.php
The drawing from the Lotrscenerybuilder page of the movie set mill pond is the best evidence that the set maker did not think any one would notice. This is pure speculation on my part but in the LOTR movie the Mill set may not have even had a back side. In the center of a diorama lay out the model will need to depict some kind of water course for an overshot. I have not worked it out either!
I noticed from your other WIP the model of Durin's Causeway. I built one from Lotrscenerybuilder plan. I want to replace my model with a new one built with Hirst Art blocks.Can you post more photos of your model?

I look forward to seeing your WIP and hearing about future plans.!


I agree with you. I was confused about the location of the aqueduct.

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"the same as a duck you must be made of wood"

Tolkien's Moria drawing was actually the reason I hunted down a copy of the Pictures book via Amazon. Not that it helped much!

I posted two Moria board pics to my WIP thread, do take a look and let me know if you need more at this point. Otherwise, I will post more in any case once our campaign gets that far (the fifth scenario from now should take place on the causeway).

Thanks!

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"the same as a duck you must be made of wood"

Regarding the Mill, could it be that there is a weir downriver of the bridge?

Or does that smack of too industrialised for Hobbits, perhaps?

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3coloursbased - irregular painting and gaming blog

Tolkien's own picture of the Bywater Mill had a small waterfall where the mill wheel was; the mill was of the undershot type, unlike the one in the movie. Weir is perhaps too elaborate; more likely, there would be a waterfall upstream, and the hobbits have dug a mill race diverting water from above the waterfall to the overshot at the mill. That is probably how I will do it - just haven't done the final layout of the terrain yet. Of course, the mill race needs to run under the road leading to the bridge...