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 Post subject: Re: Smaug, how the hell is GW going to pull that off????
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:35 pm 
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I know this thread is about models, but in terms of gameplay, if Smaug is going to be better than the current dragon, Bard is going to have to have one hell of a profile...
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 Post subject: Re: Smaug, how the hell is GW going to pull that off????
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:04 pm 
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Here is a bit of speculation: if GW go for plastic, they will probably want a kit that fits into the same size box as the Mumakil. There will be no howdah and no troops frame so everything can be used for Smaug and his base. That base could be much larger than the mumak base - there is no reason for it to be the same size.
The next question is, do they model him on the ground or in flight? Do they offer the option of going either way (that would be tough to engineer given how the wings fold and the legs would be supporting the weight rather than being tucked up to reduce aerodynamic drag in flight.)
Balrog vs Dragon in terms of power: the GW balrog is reduced in size from how it was portrayed in the films, but what people appear to be forgetting is that the balrogs were Maiar, the evil counterparts to good Maiar like Gandalf. Maiar are demigods in Tolkien's world, with the balrogs being one form of demon. They had savage physical power but more importantly, they had evil magical abilities - that was the unseen part of the battle between Gandalf and Durinsbane - it was the part that almost defeated Gandalf as he was already strained from everything he had been doing for months prior to the encounter whereas the balrog had been resting on his 'laurels' for years.
Dragons are clever, of huge physical strength and possessed of their terrible flaming ability. But they do not have the kind of magical powers that balrogs possessed.
So, the Smaug would have a high points cost but more due to physical power/size and psychological impact whereas a greater part of the balrog's cost should be down to its evil powers. Dragons and balrogs were not all of precisely the same kind, size or powers so you would expect some variations in them.
I hope for a substantial, well engineered plastic kit. If it is too small, or finecast, or simply insanely priced, then I too may go the toy route or proxy something else for Smaug-GW are far from the only dragon manufacturers out there.

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 Post subject: Re: Smaug, how the hell is GW going to pull that off????
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:25 pm 
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I imagine that Smaug will be as big as the Mumakil... i'll be cool with that. I mean the balrog is already scaled way down.
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 Post subject: Re: Smaug, how the hell is GW going to pull that off????
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 2:17 pm 
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SuicidalMarsbar wrote:
I know this thread is about models, but in terms of gameplay, if Smaug is going to be better than the current dragon, Bard is going to have to have one hell of a profile...


I don't think he does. They just need to give either him or Smaug a special rule regarding either "hole in armour" or "the black arrow". Or maybe they doesen't try to replicate the book/movie and just say that bard was very lucky to kill Smaug, only representing this in the game with Bard getting +1 to all shooting wound rolls.
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 Post subject: Re: Smaug, how the hell is GW going to pull that off????
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:29 pm 
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Dorthonion wrote:
Here is a bit of speculation: if GW go for plastic, they will probably want a kit that fits into the same size box as the Mumakil. There will be no howdah and no troops frame so everything can be used for Smaug and his base. That base could be much larger than the mumak base - there is no reason for it to be the same size.
The next question is, do they model him on the ground or in flight? Do they offer the option of going either way (that would be tough to engineer given how the wings fold and the legs would be supporting the weight rather than being tucked up to reduce aerodynamic drag in flight.)
Balrog vs Dragon in terms of power: the GW balrog is reduced in size from how it was portrayed in the films, but what people appear to be forgetting is that the balrogs were Maiar, the evil counterparts to good Maiar like Gandalf. Maiar are demigods in Tolkien's world, with the balrogs being one form of demon. They had savage physical power but more importantly, they had evil magical abilities - that was the unseen part of the battle between Gandalf and Durinsbane - it was the part that almost defeated Gandalf as he was already strained from everything he had been doing for months prior to the encounter whereas the balrog had been resting on his 'laurels' for years.
Dragons are clever, of huge physical strength and possessed of their terrible flaming ability. But they do not have the kind of magical powers that balrogs possessed.
So, the Smaug would have a high points cost but more due to physical power/size and psychological impact whereas a greater part of the balrog's cost should be down to its evil powers. Dragons and balrogs were not all of precisely the same kind, size or powers so you would expect some variations in them.
I hope for a substantial, well engineered plastic kit. If it is too small, or finecast, or simply insanely priced, then I too may go the toy route or proxy something else for Smaug-GW are far from the only dragon manufacturers out there.




You got the Balrog right, but you're forgetting your history, Dragons had very very powerful magic abilities, possibly more-so then Balrogs. Read The Children of Hurin. Dragons can transfix, compel, mind-whipe, etc...you're a puppet to them a meat-sack with strings. We dont see that overtly with Smaug since he seems to be a bit hot-headed. He talks Bilbo into a false sense of security though and has him reveal details he shouldn't, and that was all without making eye contact. Smaug never takes the time to use his powers though he just reacts with blasting everything in fire. Which by comparison to his forefathers makes me think he's very young and impetuous for a dragon.

I agree about the base there's no reason why they wouldn't do a larger base, or even a box for that matter. The Baneblades box is big enough for some really large wings. If I had to bet I'd say he'll be grounded. That's only because I can't imagine anything that big being held up by a GW flight stand, those clear plastic pieces can be rather fragile. I've had them break with just a pegasus knight on one.
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 Post subject: Re: Smaug, how the hell is GW going to pull that off????
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:39 pm 
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I usually go down the route of black arrow causes D6 wounds, I am awaiting this release with great avidity, looking forward to seeing the sheer size of this model.

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 Post subject: Re: Smaug, how the hell is GW going to pull that off????
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:55 pm 
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I'm not looking forward to painting it, I don't have an airbrush, and that would be the best way if its huge
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 Post subject: Re: Smaug, how the hell is GW going to pull that off????
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:05 pm 
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@ RotN - I was not neglecting the magical abilities of dragons, but they are trivial in comparison to those of Maiar. Their chief ability you alluded to is dragon-spell, as described in the Encyclopedia of Arda:
http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/d/dragonspell.html
That makes even the mightiest dragons more like the Middle-earth equivalent of The Mentalist, because they mess with your head when it suits them and their cruel intelligence. Whereas wizards can alter weather patterns, communicate with many races and animals, create new types of weapons, use telekenetic powers, heal people, cast thunderbolts - the list goes on and on.
Dragons are primarily a vast flying warmachine ('Think furnace with wings') and I hope the model does Smaug some justice in that respect. I hope the rules also reflect his cunning and intelligence.

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 Post subject: Re: Smaug, how the hell is GW going to pull that off????
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:24 pm 
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I was told today by a GW staff member that the stories they have heard are along the lines of Smaug being in the next movies starter box set with a new set of thorins company. This would mean a plastic Smaug.
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 Post subject: Re: Smaug, how the hell is GW going to pull that off????
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:52 pm 
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Dorthonion wrote:
@ RotN - I was not neglecting the magical abilities of dragons, but they are trivial in comparison to those of Maiar. Their chief ability you alluded to is dragon-spell, as described in the Encyclopedia of Arda:
http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/d/dragonspell.html
That makes even the mightiest dragons more like the Middle-earth equivalent of The Mentalist, because they mess with your head when it suits them and their cruel intelligence. Whereas wizards can alter weather patterns, communicate with many races and animals, create new types of weapons, use telekenetic powers, heal people, cast thunderbolts - the list goes on and on.
Dragons are primarily a vast flying warmachine ('Think furnace with wings') and I hope the model does Smaug some justice in that respect. I hope the rules also reflect his cunning and intelligence.



Understood, it may be my perception that Balrogs are just demonic war machines and brutes. They come off as hell hounds bent on destruction to me, but thralled to the will of Morgoth. You never read about them doing anything other then killing high ranking Elves, tell me if I'm wrong. If Tolkien had given them at least one or two lines of dialogue, even a simple sentence my perception wouldn't be what it is. To me they'll remain powerful evil elemental spirits but not as smart sentient creatures with wills and agendas of their own.
Agreed about the Istari though, they trump all
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 Post subject: Re: Smaug, how the hell is GW going to pull that off????
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:40 pm 
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MoriaMadness wrote:
I was told today by a GW staff member that the stories they have heard are along the lines of Smaug being in the next movies starter box set with a new set of thorins company. This would mean a plastic Smaug.


But they have almost no interaction with Smaug save for Bilbo. It's all lake town.

I'm also a bit concerned with the film-makers' choice to make Smaug so big, considering his death in the book. Pin in an elephants foot?

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 Post subject: Re: Smaug, how the hell is GW going to pull that off????
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:13 pm 
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Gene Parmesan wrote:
MoriaMadness wrote:
I was told today by a GW staff member that the stories they have heard are along the lines of Smaug being in the next movies starter box set with a new set of thorins company. This would mean a plastic Smaug.


But they have almost no interaction with Smaug save for Bilbo. It's all lake town.

I'm also a bit concerned with the film-makers' choice to make Smaug so big, considering his death in the book. Pin in an elephants foot?


Maybe Bard does one of those stupid hollywood multi-arrow shots, three arrows, one weak spot, dead.
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 Post subject: Re: Smaug, how the hell is GW going to pull that off????
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:19 pm 
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Maybe they move the softspot from his belly to somewhere on his head. Or maybe Bard use s a balista.
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 Post subject: Re: Smaug, how the hell is GW going to pull that off????
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:39 pm 
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RangerofTheNorth wrote:
Dorthonion wrote:
@ RotN - I was not neglecting the magical abilities of dragons, but they are trivial in comparison to those of Maiar. Their chief ability you alluded to is dragon-spell, as described in the Encyclopedia of Arda:
http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/d/dragonspell.html
That makes even the mightiest dragons more like the Middle-earth equivalent of The Mentalist, because they mess with your head when it suits them and their cruel intelligence. Whereas wizards can alter weather patterns, communicate with many races and animals, create new types of weapons, use telekenetic powers, heal people, cast thunderbolts - the list goes on and on.
Dragons are primarily a vast flying warmachine ('Think furnace with wings') and I hope the model does Smaug some justice in that respect. I hope the rules also reflect his cunning and intelligence.



Understood, it may be my perception that Balrogs are just demonic war machines and brutes. They come off as hell hounds bent on destruction to me, but thralled to the will of Morgoth. You never read about them doing anything other then killing high ranking Elves, tell me if I'm wrong. If Tolkien had given them at least one or two lines of dialogue, even a simple sentence my perception wouldn't be what it is. To me they'll remain powerful evil elemental spirits but not as smart sentient creatures with wills and agendas of their own.
Agreed about the Istari though, they trump all


Two points on the Balrogs though, First one of his Chief Commanders was Gothmog, if they were nothing more then dogs then how could he command armies? Second the Balrogs are Maiar who followed Malkior in ancient days: "For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror."
-Of the Enemies, The Silmarillion
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 Post subject: Re: Smaug, how the hell is GW going to pull that off????
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:55 pm 
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By example, follow the big flaming beast! charge! ;)
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 Post subject: Re: Smaug, how the hell is GW going to pull that off????
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:01 pm 
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Gene Parmesan wrote:
MoriaMadness wrote:
I was told today by a GW staff member that the stories they have heard are along the lines of Smaug being in the next movies starter box set with a new set of thorins company. This would mean a plastic Smaug.


But they have almost no interaction with Smaug save for Bilbo. It's all lake town.

I'm also a bit concerned with the film-makers' choice to make Smaug so big, considering his death in the book. Pin in an elephants foot?


Well, Smaug's fall did crush an entire city, he should be huge. And as to his death, they just make the arrow land in his heart.

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 Post subject: Re: Smaug, how the hell is GW going to pull that off????
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:56 pm 
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The Balrogs were of the same order of Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast and the Blue Wizards. I was immensely surprised and dissappointed that GW didn't give the Balrog any magical abilities. I was expecting the normal Transfix and Compel at the least.

As for Bard, I'm 99% positive that he at least get's a str4 bow (ie, the Great Bow from the rulebook). I could also see him having +1 to wound with his bow or maybe even Deadeye (like Ori) and a special one time only Black Arrow rule that lets him either cause something like D6 wounds per hit. He would also need to have Expert Shot.

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 Post subject: Re: Smaug, how the hell is GW going to pull that off????
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:01 pm 
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I expect most people have seen this
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer/W ... RAGON.html
13 inches long st £145
Maybe it will be similar to this

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 Post subject: Re: Smaug, how the hell is GW going to pull that off????
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:39 pm 
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RangerofTheNorth wrote:
That's only because I can't imagine anything that big being held up by a GW flight stand, those clear plastic pieces can be rather fragile. I've had them break with just a pegasus knight on one.


There are really big, thick flight stands that GW use for 40K flyers/planes. That should hold a large dragon up.

There's no saying it has to have a base though- the Defiler kit has a large footprint and has no base at all- doesn't really fit on to any of the GW ones either.
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 Post subject: Re: Smaug, how the hell is GW going to pull that off????
PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:39 am 
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SuicidalMarsbar wrote:
I know this thread is about models, but in terms of gameplay, if Smaug is going to be better than the current dragon, Bard is going to have to have one hell of a profile...


Not really. Just a really got shot with the bow. He might have a 2+ shoot value, but all his other stats shouldn't be all that mindblowing.

I'm expecting something along the lines of:

F 5/2+, S 4, D 5 or 6, A 2, W 2, C 6


M 3
W 2
F 2
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