This is unfortunate. I will not buy anything from GW. They are crazy

Not rwd all the posts yet (of which there are many), but this is true - at least for goblins, for wood elves and for mordor orcs. Half as many models, for £13.50 (meaning £27 instead of £20.50).

Lol @ the Tag - there is more to be done houserulewise, I think your opponents just haven't tried enough of it on you yet!

WOMT are $44NZD (roughly halve that to get pounds) for the 12 figs. It is so outrageous that I almost admire their style. Those are afterall older figures with not the best undercuts etc...

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Wargames Factory:
32 figures for ~£18 (the price I bought mine at in the UK from a small retailer. Small meaning, from a lovely chap and his young daughter, running a stall at a Gaming convention/show I went to).
18.0/32 = £0.56 per model.
(Unarmoured and Armoured Warriors available for Vikings and Anglo Saxons. Ideal for Dunland and Rohan).

Gripping Beast:
44 figures for £20.
20.0/44 = £0.45 per model.
(Armoured warriors available for Vikings and Anglo Saxons).

GW. Warriors of Rohan:

before price hike and repackaging:
£20.50 for 24 models.
20.5/24 = £0.85 per model. Double the price of GB and WF but still reasonable.

after price hike and repackaging:
£13.50 for 12 models
13.5/12 = £1.13 (rounded up 1p). At more than £1 per plastic model, it is getting a lot more expensive.

Lets apply that to a real life, hobbyist's scenario. Now lets say you play WOTR and want 6 companies of Rohan infantry. Or you play SBG and just want a lot of infantry. So for 48 models:

Wargames Factory:
0.56 x 48 = £26.88

Gripping Beast:
0.45 x 48 = £21.60

GW, old price and box size.
0.85 x 48 = £40.80

GW, new price and box size.
1.13 x 48 = £54.24.

For 48 Rohan infantry or equivalent models, WF is £26, GB is £21, but GW is £54, £14 more than what it charged for just a few days ago. I can only imagine how much worse it must be for New Zealanders and Australians.

Make of that what you will.

Yes, GW has a large network of stores and large numbers of staff, so has higher overheads to account for etc. But are these exponential, inflation nuking price hikes really proportionate? Is this really healthy for the hobby in general? With its significant high street presence to the almost total exclusion of all competitors, is this really a positive representation of the hobby in general?

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Or you play Warhammer 40K and want a couple squads of space marine terminators.

5 plastic figures for $50 US/28 pounds UK/$74 Aus
$10 per model

Random warmachine infantry 10 (identified as plastic) models for $50
Fairly typical grunt for Malifaux 3 metal models $22
Infinity 4 models for $30

It is all relative.

Not that I am defending GW. They are rapidly pricing me out of their games, but to suggest that the GW LotR miniatures are among the most expensive figs out there is just not true. That WotR was so cheap to get into was long one of my major selling points for the game. Sadly, that is not quite true anymore.

Forgottenlore, you are comparing apples with oranges there. Is a malifux of infinity model really the equivalent of the likes of a GW WOMT?
I don't know those games well but they look like very low model count games with extra pretty (and larger scale, in some cases?) mins. More like an army of WOTR Epic heroes or monsters or metal rares?

King Ondoher's comparisons were more reasonable, in that they are at least the same types of models and in fact ones that can and are used in WOTR.

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Warmachine, Malifaux and Infinity are different genres of miniature wargaming, from what I gather. They're much more narrative driven (?), using much smaller numbers of models. Their models are also better quality and detailed etc, compared to GW's mass produced models. In the Core GW games, you use dozens if not hundred of models. LOTR, 40K etc are Mass Battles. GW's business model is to sell HUGE quantities of Miniature, whereas those other games use less than 30(?) from what little I've seen of them.

Besides, I'm only drawing from my own personal experience. I play LOTR, Warhammer 40K and SAGA Anglo-Saxons/Danes (just started recently). The only other games I've had direct contact with, is Warhammer, WOTR (never even considered it beyond one GW store intro game due to the huge start up costs), and various historical games (e.g. Flames of War) via my Local Gaming Club (Middlesbrough). I'm sure there are miniature companies out there with much higher prices than GW, but I'm sure they have more valid reasons than just greed alone. And I was also talking about price comparisons in the context of WOTR and LOTR SBG alone.

Certain WOTR armies would be very cheap to put together if you think outside the box and look at non GW models. Wargames Factory have some nice multipart plastic Orcs, though they're not to everyone's liking (I quite like them). WF and Gripping Beast both do good quality Saxons and Vikings. Perry Miniatures do African Tribesmen, might be suitable for Harad and the Mahud. I suppose you could even use Wargames Factory's new Samurai and Ashigaru plastics as Khand and Easterlings, though the aesthetic isn't quite right (couldn't use the Ashigaru Teppo firearms for instance, and they don't have Shields ).


GW bases its business model on selling massive quantities of miniatures. Their Core games reflect that. Typical Games of 40K and Warhammer use dozens if not hundreds of miniatures, and LOTR SBG, being a skirmish game typically uses 20 - 100 models (from elite Fellowships to Hordes). WOTR games might also push a hundred. So, for a company which wishes to sell large numbers of miniatures, they really ought to keep the price low rather than jacking it up at a faster rate than inflation year on year, and pulling all sort of shenanigans like cutting the model count. Things like this leave a bad impression on their customers, and seriously erode customer loyalty (something which GW seems to not give a Devlan Mud about, and takes for granted).

They really are shooting themselves in the foot. With the economic climate these days, their customers purchasing power is fast falling behind GW's jacked up prices. So sales fall, GW's profit margins are affected and their shareholders take note, and to compensate, GW jacks its prices up yet again to cover the shortfall...their sales are affected again, their profits are hit...you get the idea.

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This makes me cry ...you really need to broaden your horizons. WOTR was never cheap to get into. It might have the cheapest of Gamesworkshop's (non-Skirmish) Games to get into, but compared to the many other equivalent mass battle games and miniature manufacturers out there, it is still extremely expensive.

Just work out how much it would cost you to do a 1000pt Rohan force using GW miniatures at GW prices...

(considering theres another thread on this site discussing how GW is now withdrawing the Trade price which it used to offer 3rd party retailers like Weyland and Maelstrom, forcing to buy at ITS PRICES, the RRP. So no more Maelstrom, Weyland discounts. They have to charge the FULL PRICE which GW itself charges, and they have to jack up the price to simply make a profit themselves, so they charge more than GW...making GW "the best place to find the lowest prices" [chokes] ).

...and then compare that to a 1000pt Rohan force using Gripping Beast and Wargames Factory for the bulk infantry, GB metals for the horsemen (typical prices are £5.50 for 4 metal mounted Early/Mid Saxons). GB, Westwind, Foundry, Conquest Games metals for the characters.

I'm VERY fortunate, in that I've developed a massive backlog over the years (around 200 unpainted models for LOTR 40K and Historical Saxons, and about 60 unassembled LOTR minis). So I have no real desire to continue to purchase from GW anymore, other than the odd character (I want Cirion and Madril, perhaps an armoured Faramir the old one, and 6 Hobbit Archers for Battle Companies).

And better yet, the game Im currently playing/aspiring to play (SAGA), uses minis (the GB and WF Saxons) which can easily double as Rohirrim. Some of them might require some houseruling to use e.g. my Anglo-Danish Huscarls with Dane-Axes. Rohan has no 2hand weapons, so I might come up with my own profiles. They are also all foot figures, but I could get some metal horsemen from GB (at very good prices).

Oh and a disclaimer...Although this is a bit of a rant, I by no means hate GW. I just hate the cynical and greedy way it is run. The games are still fun (mostly), the staff are generally helpful friendly and enthusiastic, the Stores (when not overrun by noisy misbehaved kids < personal experience) are still fun places to be and wast time, the products are still good quality (if cynically over priced and avaialable elsewhere if you look for it). Over the 8 years that I've been a customer, nay, a fan, It seems to me to have lost its soul. Bring back the days when it was run by people who actually loved the company and the hobby, who had a gamer and hobbyist ethos I say. (not that it'll happen of course ).

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If you compare SBG with other popular low-model count games like Malifaux and Infinity, SBG isn't especially pricy.

If you compare WotR with the other big name mass battle games, WotR is still cheap (it was dirt cheap, but that isn't so much the case anymore)

Bell of Lost Souls recently did an article on putting together a bargain basement space marine army for 40K. They went for a tournament playable list that would be as cheap as possible and still ended up with a $500 price tag (325 pounds).

Yes, for what you are getting the price rises on the LotR figures are criminal, but they are hardly through the roof, sky high astronomical. Both games remain solidly in the lower end of the price spectrum.

Since I started gaming in the mid '80s my benchmark for miniature prices has been $3 for a basic guy. Less than that was pretty good, more than that and I had to start thinking whether or not a REALLY needed that particular fig. 25 years later all of the models I see in stores are more than that, except the LotRs ones. Yeah, there are online manufacturers that make cheaper figs for specialized markets. Some of them are even really good figs. In another 10 years I expect we will have an excellent selection of awesome, low cost figs to choose from, but for right now, if you are going to compare the price of miniatures, it seems to me you should either be comparing prices across the board, or those from similar manufacturers, i.e. the big names that have large, popular, international games.

GW produces figures in the UK (and US I think), where are the other companies manufacturing their figures?

If most other figures are produced in the far East then that would make a huge difference to cost.

Renedra.

And this isn't about justifying GWs price. Cost hasn't much at all to do with it, but then cost isn't much at all to do with most of the fancy stuff we buy, in an economy that works like ours.

All a couple of us were pointing out is that it is sad to see something that used to be competitively priced - like for like (ie special metal figs vs other special metal figs, multi-part plastics vs multi-part plastics, books vs books, all in one game system vs all in one game system) has very quickly been rendered pretty laughable. That is, most of my gaming circle - longtime wargamers who are quite into their hobby and play a wide range of games - actually laugh when they see those prices. No doubt there is no issue in that GW can still hope to sell Middle Earth stuff to the types of gamers that already accept their prices. There are a lot of these people, they are a very successful business.

Given the composition of my gaming group, it is going to be a serious issue. I'm not sure this is a problem for GW's sales but it does excessively narrow the types of gamers who will be interested in something like WOTR, which is a big shame for me!

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I have been in and out of GW miniatures from their humble beginnings and the one thing I understand about their pricing policies is that the less they are likely to sell the more expensive they make the miniatures. That's why all the Character and Hero miniatures are a much inflated price because gamers would only ever purchase and need one of them. Now perhaps that less people are buying LotR miniatures GW feel the need to increase the price to enable them to continue to produce them. But I feel the increase is too great here, and splitting the boxes into 12s doesn't, to me, justify in any way a 30% increase in price. But then the massive increase in price for there Finecasst models in comparison to the old metal ones is a difficult one too. I have to admit I'm a massive fan of GW LotR miniatures and the SBG gaming system, but when I started collecting I told myself if GW increase the price of their plastics to over £1 each I would stop collecting, they have now. I have some serious thinking to do...........

Humph.

I do want a new rulebook (yay).
I can't really foresee buying anything much new this year anyway (booo) - I have promised myself to paint all my "WOTR-ish" elf army (ie, Lorien and Rivendell skirmish armies) this year which really doesn't need my buying much new. I have a vague plan of getting some plastic mounted elves, at some point. But that's an ebay. If one of those old Dwarf or Mordor army sets showed up on Ebay and I had the money, I'd be all over it. That's a lot of "ifs"

I have no doubt that I'll probably be buying Hobbit thingies, especially things like Mirkwood Elves. Or maybe those mounted Rivendell Elves we see in the trailer. Not many, but some. But I can certainly see an end in sight of the collection. Time to focus on the backlog.

But I digress. The problem is, if SBG is meant to be a starter game, a flagship game, it should really be as accessible as possible. Which means some price control, certainly. Done right, the SBG, combined with a new movie and its attendant hype can get new people in stores, buying product. Done not-right, you get less of that. Something GW may want to consider.

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Dreaming of getting back to painting...any month now.

Why? New isn't necessarily better. Other than a few rules quibbles with cavalry, and some unusable profiles (e.g.: chariots, etc), the only thing "broken" about SBG is the inability for new players to get the profiles. The rules themselves are an exercise in elegant simplicity.

Assuming a new rulebook has all the profiles from existing sourcebooks, they have only solved this problem in the short term. New sourcebooks for Mirkwood, Iron Hills, Laketown or Dale might appear, which suggests a repeat of the current cycle several years down the road as the sourcebooks go out of print and they don't bother to update their website.

As for the rules, rumour has it they are adding something wrt captains and minimum or maximum troop counts...one wonders what else is being tweaked or modified. I suspect they have reengineered the game to make new profiles like Laketown unusable without conversion in the old SBG, for the sole purpose of forcing the community to buy a new fat tome.

I'm cynical about all this because I think GW has several other economically viable (and valuable) alternatives that would create greater customer satisfaction, brand loyalty, and a longer-term revenue stream. There are plenty of other companies in the gaming business they could learn from. I look at companies like Apple and you can understand the customer fervour. The IP is top-notch, as is the customer experience. GW on the other hand is only successful because of the demand for its IP, and they almost go out of their way to aggravate their customer base.

I think the biggest problem with current rule set is not the rules themselves but the profiles.

I don't mind having to buy books for some profiles as long as they are well planned. The current state is too fragmented with many profiles only available in White Dwarf and some forces (e.g. Rohan and Isengard) having their profiles split across journey books, White Dwarf and the rule book without any updated force lists since LoME.

I hope the core rules don't change too much, all that really needs changing is the balance of profiles. I'm not sure if we're likely to see all the current profiles (and force lists) in the a new rule book or not. I guess without them it would be quite thin, but I imagine GW would like to sell a new version of LoME along with army books too. Although I've heard it said that books are not very profitable, so maybe we will see one book.

Hopefully the packaging of warriors will help to see a return to a more scenario based game. I think the way for GW to make most profit is to encourage us to have a little of everything for skirmish games rather than a single army for mass battles. That approach keeps people always buying instead of only when their army gets new models.

I think you'll be happy with what is coming soon...

what is comming?

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GW doesn't seem to understand economics. If you decrease price, sales tend to increase. If you increase price, sales tend to decrease. At a certain point, you reach an equilibrium, where price meets sales to give the highest possible profit. So, if something isn't selling well, decrease the price to the point where you can get rid of it without losing any money. GW is doing the opposite. I understand that LotR isn't their most popular brand, but the more you increase the price of them, the less you will sell, decreasing profits. If they understood economics, they would sell them MUCH cheaper than this. I don't know the production costs of producing a box of minis, but it can't be any higher than $15-$20, otherwise they wouldn't have sold them (early) last year for only $27. There can't possibly be such a drastic change in costs to call for a price hike up to almost $45.

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But that is only true if you are on one side of the graph. If you are on the other side then decreasing prices does not generate enough new sales to compensate for the lost revenue and increasing prices doesn't loose sales as fast as the increase generates income, until the next equilibrium point in the line is reached.

As price goes up sales will drop off marginally until a certain point is reached, then they will crash big time (obviously it isn't as cut and dried as that, but that is generally how it works out). In general terms, a business wants their prices set at just under that point to maximize profits.

Unfortunately, GW has longs since passed that point.

But you ONLY maximize profits at the points of equilibrium, where the sales price meets the price limits of most people buying.

_________________
"Leave Sauron to me."
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