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 Post subject: Gondor noob cries for help
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 2:51 pm 
Kinsman
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Hi everybody
I have some questions about my new Gondor army for SBG.

1: Today I played a little scenario with my Harad-playing friend. One Mumak with a single chieftain/commander and foul temper (or something like that) against one box WoMT with captain, banner and horn blower AND a special rule: each time one of my models died (except the captain), it would enter the game again in movement phase the next turn. We played for eight rounds, and I did not manage to inflict a single Wound. So... what made me so ineffective?
a) Mumak is overpowered
b) I need more elite stuff rather than just WoMT
c) The dice were against me
d) I am extremely bad at making tactics
e) All of above

2: I am not sure that I understand the Fighting rules good. I know the basics about rolling dice, winning fights, back off if you lose, scoring wounds and so on, but... for an example: Haradrim chieftain with spear support against 2 WoMT, both with spear support. WoMT have a total of 4 attacks (right?) and the Chieftain has 3. The Chieftain wins the fight: does it now roll 1 or 2 dice to inflict wounds (since it have 2 attacks), and if it's two dice, can he attempt to strike both WoMT?

BTW, should I buy Rangers or Blackroot Vale Archers for the next? I'm buying a huge (used) box of models on the internet, including about 10 Heroes and 60 WoMT, but I want some better archers: Rangers or Blackroot Vale. Which one is best?

I hope you can help with at least one of my questions.
Thank you in advance :-)
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 Post subject: Re: Gondor noob cries for help
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 4:26 pm 
Loremaster
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There are a few things you require to fight a mumakil
1) More Might than him so you can Heroic Move preventing the Mumak from trampling.
2) At least F4 to draw fights, F5 is obviously better.
3) S4 to make it easy to wound.
5) Archers to shoot the driver preventing him from Heroic Moves and lowers the Courage for stampeding.

You have none of these therefore you lose :)

As to your other question about supported fights, there are 2 rules which will cover every question you have.
1) The supporting model is NEVER considered to be part of the Fight.
2) The supported models Attack value is increased by one for the support. Possibly +2 if supported by a second model armed with a pike.
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 Post subject: Re: Gondor noob cries for help
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 5:37 pm 
Craftsman
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normal rangers are better, unless you're sure that you're fighting the mumak 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Gondor noob cries for help
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 8:51 pm 
Elven Elder
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Agree with hithero, thiugh I add that in your example, the Harad Chieftain rolls 3 dice to wound, the 2 on his profile and the supporting one, all at strength 4.

However, if the Harad Chieftain in question was the Mumak's commander, the WoMT cannot climb the Mumak and nor can the Chieftain descend without the ropes) so that fight couldn't happen.

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 Post subject: Re: Gondor noob cries for help
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:24 am 
Kinsman
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For fighting a Mumak, you will want him to trample you as little as possible, so heroes with a lot of might, and/or high defence, wounds, and fate. Boromir Captain of the White Tower with shield would be pretty good, with Prince Imrahil being a somewhat cheaper, but also a less reliable alternative. You have 6 might as Boromir, so you can call a lot of heroic moves if you lose priority, or to counter the Mumak's heroic moves if he does any. If he still manages to move before you by winning the roll, you will want to have Boromir placed so that the Mumak will hit him without first trampling too many of your warriors. If he is not using tusk weapons, he only gets 3 hits against Boromir, which he should be able to survive, forcing the Mumak to stop and not trample anyone. Boromir's defence 8 (with shield) will make the Mumak's trample only would on a 4+ instead of the 3+ of most of the other stuff. Even if it does inflict 3 wounds however, Boromir should be able to absorb that with his 3 wounds and 3 fate.

Once you get the Mumak to stand still, either by Heroic Movement, or by stepping in it's way with a hero, you now need to send as many men to fight him as possible. For this, Citadel or Fountain Guards are excellent, as their bodyguard rule allows them to charge the Mumak without taking courage tests. Dol Amroth knights are also better than most Gondor units as they have a courage of 4, and if you chose Prince Imrahil instead of Boromir, they can be pretty deadly against the rest of the Haradrim (since the Mumak is not the only thing in his army) because they count as being within range of a banner when Imrahil is within 28cm (14in?). Also, you will want people who hit a big harder as well. Clansmen of Lamedon are perfect, as they have 2 handed weapons, and their courage is 5, making it easy for them to charge the Mumak. If you take Angbor the Fearless, they will have the banner bonus from him, though at half he range, and Angbor also hits hard, having a 2 handed weapon, 2 attacks, and might to use if you need it to wound. You are relying on Boromir's fighting value which beats the Mumak, and the attacks of Boromir and the non-2h weapon warriors to win the fight, which should not be hard if you have a lot of men. Then, the guys with 2h weapons will be able to wound the Mumak on a 5+, while others will need a 6. You don't need to kill the Mumak, just wound it enough times for the Commander to fail a courage test (he takes this every time the Mumak is wounded) and it will stampede, allowing you to move it in the next movement phase instead of him. If you are near a board edge, you can move it off, or you can attempt to kill your opponents troops with it.

Another thing you can do before the Mumak even gets to you is to shoot at it. You can do this, and hope for a stampede, or just try to weaken it enough so that you CAN kill it later in close combat. If you do wish to try this, the Blackroot Vale archers are better, as they get some bonus when shooting monsters (don't know the rules, and have never used them). However, I would recommend taking Rangers instead, and not shooting at the Mumak, but trying to kill the commander at the top, making it far easier for the Mumak to fail his courage tests when he does get hit. The rangers also have higher courage, allowing them to charge the Mumak as well if need be, and higher fight (I think?) making them better against the Haradrim.

Also, use terrain to your advantage, hide behind big cliffs or whatever else that the Mumak can't pass through, and try to get the Mumak to get close to you without being able to charge (it can't turn during the movement phase, only the beginning, so if you are behind a huge cliff, it will have to come around one turn, and only being allowed to charge the next turn, before which you may have a chance to attack. Also try to keep your men spread out a little so that if he does get a successful charge in, he won't get all your men at once. This may be difficult while trying to put a hero in front of him at the same time, but you can try to see what the best option is during the fight.

Gondor and Harad are my two biggest armies, and though I have not played AGAINST a Mumak, I have used the Mumak a lot myself, and I know that Mumaks are very easy to kill with the right tactics. Just yesterday I got swarmed by Khazad Guard and Dwarf heroes who took my Mumak down in 2 turns of close combat, and all the crew fell to their death, and I only killed a shieldbearer and a few Khazads during a charge.

That's just my two cents.

Thanks!

Maermaethor.

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 Post subject: Re: Gondor noob cries for help
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:36 pm 
Kinsman
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Thanks for the quick replies!
That was really some good advice, and I think it will help me to my next battles :-D
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 Post subject: Re: Gondor noob cries for help
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:26 pm 
Loremaster
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Awesome write-ups above and you will find that the right tactics and mix of models will really have a positive influence on your success against the Mumuks. But in the short term, terrain can be your best friend. If you're playing on a big open field you're going to have a lot of trouble. If you have woodlands, rocks, hills, buildings, ruins, etc. around then use it. That alone can level the playing field significantly against these beasts while you are trying to work out the finer points in dealing with them through army building and tactics.

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 Post subject: Re: Gondor noob cries for help
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:42 am 
Craftsman
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Having spent much time getting trampled by a Mumak in small battles, much time killing them in large battles, and quite a bit of time thinking about how to deal with the monstrosity, here are my thoughts.

First, don't ever, EVER let it trample a wide swathe of warriors. Or you can say farewell to that portion of the battlefield, unless someone has a shield that has been blessed by the Valar and somehow doesn't die. If you are short on F4 or higher models, hide from the Mumak. In this regard, I would agree with Beowulf- if you are in a piece of terrain (and defense values and such haven't been applied) then you are as safe as you can be. In a small game, that is nearly always the way to go.

In open field fighting, make sure you either 1) win the archers duel (difficult when fighting against 12 men with bows who hide behind barriers, but not impossible), or 2) plan a heroic move well. Very well, if you like charging such creatures.

But, when throwing Warriors of MT against it, or Warriors of Rohan, or anyone else who packs F3- you must swamp it to bring it down (okay, so anyone has to swamp it, but when you have a lower fight value than it, you really want the swamping to count). Higher fight value-types can win several fights and wear it down, but the ones with lower fight values have to bring it down in the shortest number of turns possible. May your swords stay sharp and arrows fly true!

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