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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:39 pm 
Kinsman
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One thing about Mordor, from a practicality perspective - due to their horde nature, you have to but A LOT of Orcs - even in plastic that gets pricey!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:44 pm 
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Edraitheru wrote:
I would have to rate Mordor as a 4 yes they have a great selection and dont really need allies but they also have low courage meaning you have to invest heavily on epics and heroes,also Mordor tends to focus more on a horde army then an elite army.


I would say that Morannon Orc can hold their own against many Good elites and come in plastic sets letting you field more than probably any "real" elite force in the game without killing your bank account. They can actually be a horde/elite. With the FAQ upgrade of the Black Guard's strength on top of all their already high stats that Formation is a brutal elite as well (just be careful with those Berserk rolls!), while "standard" Mordor Uruk Hai are also a very strong upper class fighting unit and now offer a little variety of poses. Castellans, though in my opinion not properly "Mordor", are another fine example of elite forces within the ranks of the Eye.

Yes, you can easily field hordes of basic Orc or even cheap Warg Riders, and I think any proper army of Mordor really does need at least one of these. But they do have a few nice examples of toughened troops as well.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:18 pm 
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Mordor need be no more a horde than Gondor is a horde. Their only 'problem' is that they have cost-effective baseline troops.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:21 am 
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Yes, I really want to get a decently sized formation of BGoBD but just to get a 3 company strong formation will cost £64 plus the command blister...

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 1:51 pm 
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spuds4ever wrote:
Yes, I really want to get a decently sized formation of BGoBD but just to get a 3 company strong formation will cost £64 plus the command blister...


Yeah, I understand. Thankfully I already had just over 2 Companies worth of Mordor Uruks and picked up a couple blisters of the new style of them to round it off to a full 3 Companies and they are my Black Guard of Dol Guldur. :-D Drop the Mouth of Sauron in there next to a Black Guard Captain and you have a very mean Formation. 8)

In time I may actually pick up some of the Black Guard models but starting a whole metal-mini Formation from nothing is not very appealing. I still want to fill out my Wood Elf Sentinels and am going to be doing that by converting plastic WE minis to be a little more unique and mixing them in with the metal Sentinels and metal Haldir's Elves which I already have.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 1:53 pm 
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Beowulf03809 wrote:
spuds4ever wrote:
Yes, I really want to get a decently sized formation of BGoBD but just to get a 3 company strong formation will cost £64 plus the command blister...


Yeah, I understand. Thankfully I already had just over 2 Companies worth of Mordor Uruks and picked up a couple blisters of the new style of them to round it off to a full 3 Companies and they are my Black Guard of Dol Guldur. :-D Drop the Mouth of Sauron in there next to a Black Guard Captain and you have a very mean Formation. 8)


Would it be even better with a nazgul? And speaking of Nazgul, perhaps we should discuss their "specialities" as we have basically covered all the Mordor principles.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:53 pm 
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I was already using Khamul in a block of Morannon Orc and didn't want a second Nazgul. I figured that the MoS was well themed as he could be a go-between from Dol Guldur to Baradur 8) , and the model looks good both foot and mounted and he's sort of a "Nazgul lite" in game terms.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:24 pm 
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spuds4ever wrote:
And speaking of Nazgul, perhaps we should discuss their "specialities" as we have basically covered all the Mordor principles.

People seem to leap straight to Khamul, the Knight of Umbar and the Betrayer, picking broken units as a 'skill'. They are a bit much for their low cost and it has been quantified.

However, there are some other good Wraiths in there, in fact they are all (except arguably the Witchking) worth taking for their points as mastery 3 casters. Their abilities are then a nice bonus. In particular, the Dark Marshall would address concerns earlier in the thread about low courage for the list; the Tainted goes perfectly with Dismay spells; and the Dwimmerlaik cramps down on enemy might use, which presents a key theat to this lst.

The Mordor list has several good leaders in the low 100s of points: the Mouth, Gothmog, Wraiths, which combined with the cheap but excellent baseline troops is what tends to make the list so potent on the table. Even without the aforementioned three Wraiths.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:30 am 
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Something else Mordor has that gives me fits is the artillery - Siege Bows, in particular, chew up my relatively fragile Rohan cavalry real fast if I don't deal with them quickly. The War Catapult, while slightly less effective, still splats my formations.

I think Elves can deal with the artillery the easiest, due to their built-in mages.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:27 pm 
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I haven't tried using any Mordor siege weapons yet, but the bows do look to be the most effective to me. Not just for their stat line but also their cost is pretty reasonable so you can get a couple and spread them around making it harder for an enemy to take them out together as well as giving you greater coverage on the field. I have seen Dwarf Ballista used effectively and they are similar to the siege bows. On the Evil side, a couple of us have been using Strength From Corruption to quickly target and eliminate Dwarf Ballista, but if you are Mordor facing most Good forces (without a lot of magic options) then the Siege Bows can probably put the hurt on someone good.

Regarding the Nazgul, I agree that many players flock to certain ones because they have the "better" special rules. But as you point out so clearly it's really a matter of which special rule complements your particular army list and play style best (or counters a particularly nasty part of your enemy's army/style). My only Mordor-based army right now is Dol Guldur and I use Khamul simply because he's the only other named Nazgul which Tolkien specifically says ran the show at the Necromancer's fortress at times. So he'd be there regardless of which special rule he had. If un-named Nazgul (with no special rules) were an option in WotR as they were in SBG then only those would be in my force in addition to Khamul and the WK…but we don't have that option so if GW is offering up a buffet of special rules (the only differences between 8 of the 9 are their rule) then you might as well select the dish that tastes best. For pure cheese I find the one that gives you the rerolls particularly deadly (sorry…don't have my book so I don't remember the GW names as mapped to the special rules off the top of my head). Placed with a large host of archers you can actually have a decent shooting chance, but in a Formation with good Strength already (such as Morannon Orc) he makes cutting thru enemy models that much easier. I also like the one that gives the extra Mastery based on the number of other spell users if you're facing off against Elves, but if you go against Rohan or Dwarves he's not as much use.

The WK really should be the strongest and my fav, but his special rule just comes across a little flat. I rarely see a Formation fail an At the Double test in the game since you need a Hero to call it and most Heroes have decent Courage. Now if the WK allowed ALL Formations "in front of him" to At the Double automatically regardless of having a Hero or not then THAT would be a good rule and make him a very valuable addition. He could hang out behind the force on his FB while he drives everyone forward then rush in himself once combat is engaged en mass.

Also, if I remember right, ht causes enemy formations to fail At the Double if he is BEHIND them???? That makes no sense. If you have the WK behind you and your captain is telling you to rush forward (away from the WK) I'm pretty sure you'd be doing it. Maybe I remember the rule wrong (I hope) but at the time I read it I really thought it should have been that enemy models fail if the WK is IN FRONT of them (you can't force anyone to run faster at him due to fear). If I'm screwed up here please correct me.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:05 pm 
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Beowulf03809 wrote:
The WK really should be the strongest and my fav, but his special rule just comes across a little flat. I rarely see a Formation fail an At the Double test in the game since you need a Hero to call it and most Heroes have decent Courage. Now if the WK allowed ALL Formations "in front of him" to At the Double automatically regardless of having a Hero or not then THAT would be a good rule and make him a very valuable addition. He could hang out behind the force on his FB while he drives everyone forward then rush in himself once combat is engaged en mass.


... We DO play it that way in my group. Ha, we've been playing THAT wrong all along! Funny how none of us noticed that!

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:20 pm 
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The Wk is only usefull with gorbag's morgul rats. Use wings of terror on his formation and they can move 48" and still charge :shock: :shock:
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:47 pm 
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hero of gondor wrote:
The Wk is only usefull with gorbag's morgul rats. Use wings of terror on his formation and they can move 48" and still charge :shock: :shock:


But having maximum formation size as 3 for orcs is not very impressive...
Also, Tainted works well with spirits, especially sceptres.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 1:44 pm 
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We're going to take a break from the factions theme for a while and discuss now a specific formation.

Topic of the Week :orc:
Formations
WARGS/WARG RIDERS
Including Sharku's Hunters Legendary Formation

Wargs can be found in the Isengard and Misty Mountains factions. How does it fit in your army? How do you utilize them? Best combined with what (including allies)? Are they worth the value of points? What is their strengths & weaknesses? If you can, rate this formation on a scale of 1 to 5 for each type for their use in the game: Warg Pack, Warg Riders, Sharku's Hunters.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 6:59 pm 
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Heading back to factions.

:lurtz: Topic of the Week :saruman
Factions
Isengard

What are your general thoughts about this faction; strengths, weaknesses, troops, playing with & against? Don't go into details about alliances, keep to the faction as stand alone for purposes of reviewing it. Rate the faction on a scale of 1 to 5 based on how they measure up in choices of troops and how well the army plays.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:01 am 
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The Heroes to choose from are limited. Saruman is too easy to take out in an duel. Lurtz is ok, but a little overpriced for what he can do. Phalanx are not as good as easterlings as they don't have shields.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:44 am 
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They're very popular around here, and with big blocks of Phalanxes, very impressive-looking on the table. I find many Isengarders use them like Empire detachments - big block of sword'n'shields, flanked by pikes on either side. They have some odd units (Battering Ram, anyone...?), but also some great ones, such as Berserkers and Dunlending Horsemen.

Their Heroes ARE limited - I find I face Thrydan and Lurtz in every army. I have very little direct experience with Saruman, as he's simply too expensive for the 750-1000 point games we play around here. When I have faced him he's wrecked shop.

In my personal experience, they're sorta one-dimensional, which is why I'm only giving them a 3.5 out of 5.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:07 pm 
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I would give Isgenard a 4. The Hero selection is limited, but I think that is appropriate given both the book and film treatments of Isengard forces. I do so much wish that more players used Wildmen and Orcs more in their Isengard armies as I never got the impression from reading that the Uruk Hai were the mainstay of Saruman's force, but since many players use PJ's films as primary inspiration it is what it is. With some variety of troops it can be just as strong but even more flexible and visually appealing.

Lurtz's Assassin Shot is a great threat to many Epic Heroes and with his other dueling abilities makes him a good combat leader. Saruman (like any Wizard) is a matter of taste and play style below about 750 points, but I think he is very well suited at that level or above. You need to obviously protect him (again, like any Wizard) from enemy Hero-hunting, but if you do then you should find his spells can mean a world of difference in how the battle unfolds.

The sappers are cool models but very risky. I love to try to trigger a boom as they are being rushed past the main formations. 8) Doesn't happen often, but when it works it's a thing of beauty (but not to the Uruk player!). I haven't had sappers reach my force yet so I can't tell you how bad they hurt so they may just not be worth it. Maybe if facing a player dug into defensible terrain they are more appropriate.

You have a couple options for ranged attacks in the army, which is nice. The Uruk Crossbows are fantastic, but (like Berserkers) are expensive to field in large numbers. Isengard was my first SBG army and though I thought I had a decent number of Crossbows for even a 750+ point SBG force, I barely get past one Company in WotR. I'm holding off for plastic XBows. The Siege Crossbow is a great looking model and pretty dangerous vs. large Formations, especially if you can get two on the table in larger games. And of course you can pack in several Companies of cheap Orc bowmen as a nice harassment Formation.

Berserkers are a key shock troop. A couple 1-Company Formations of these can zip quickly and easily around larger Formations and do some brutal damage on Flank attacks. And they look good doing it! 8) I think these are one of the best things about Isengard armies, though you need to be willing to suck up the cost to get enough (but that really goes with almost any army since they all seem to have at least one metal-only Formation to spend a couple hundred dollars on).

I think the most common, and effective, deployment of a pure Uruk force I've seen personally has been one large block of Uruks with shields, with two flanking blocks of Pikes (each about 1/2 size of the main block) and a couple 1-Company Formations of Berserkers scattered in there. But that should be the beginning.

Warg Riders are an excellent way of really beefing up an Isengard army. They are a pretty effective cavalry in WotR (sorry I didn't have time to get involved in the discussion them earlier), especially if you give them a Captain to At the Double. Treat them as expendable scout forces to engage weak edges of an enemy or slow them down / distract them. Two Formations, each of 4-6 Companies, would be my recommendation. Not very much money or points to get on the table but really helpful.

I think an Isengard force could also really benefit from a couple Formations of expendable Orc troops for similar reasons ( slow/distract an enemy Formation or provide a buffer around your flanks). Many Evil players should have enough Orc sitting around to put together a reasonable Formation or two without much challenge.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:08 pm 
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I agree that Isegard is a 4: Strong, but not on the level of Mordor.

This is the army I have played the most games vs. My dissenting view on Isengard is that the best thing in that list is by far the Crossbow. Crossbow is just mean in this game, three coys will kill one def 5 coy per turn reliably; also, the xbow troops are still very good in melee.

Berserkers are pretty cool, but I prefer ferals for the cost and utility of the ambush.

I rate Pike by far the least useful of the common troop options. Really, they are only good in one circumstance - being charged by cav from the front. Otherwise, they are def 5 troops with no ranged weapon and +1 fight. If it is blockers you want, I'd still take Uruks with shields, which are less good vs cav from the front (and cav will generally try to get flanks anyway) and far superior vs everything else. Honestly, a situation where a player with cav is bashing up against your front isn't all that bad for you overall anyway, they game is definitely going how you want. The one exception there would be Swan Knights, which actually do that efficiently. My regular Isengard opponent generally eschews Pike, despite my regularly bringing two good sized formations of Cav to every 1000pt game.

Saruman is definitely worthwhile @ 1000 pts in an xbow based army. The 'marker light' effect of shatter shields alone is very good and he can Epic Ruination for free - Str 3 Exxisscate.

Two of the Isengard players I know just converted their Corssbows, it is cheap and easy to get crossbows from 25mm historicals suppliers.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:27 am 
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i like my isengarders. they are my go to force in SBG and thus i had to have a force for WOTR. though they are surpassed by dwarfs and especially mordor so i have to give them a 4.

my isengard army always has saruman, 1 formation of pikes, 1 of shields, 2 of orc shields and 1 of just orcs. i also throw in 1-2 companies of berserkers 1 warg riders and sharku.

Epic Heroes: this is where isengard failed to earn a 5 and got a 4. too few options. i love saruman epic ruination and touched by destiny make him a game changer. hes suseptable to duels but use him wisely and protecting him and you will have a leg up on your opponent. Lurtz is another key he can kill enemy heroes and he supplies 4 might points. thryden stinks but hes another epic hero so i'll be throwing him next time i field my isengard army. i use epic heroes to keep my berserkers from turning on eachother so i need as much help as possible.

Commons: Uruk-hai rule! with shields they provide the keys to victory, strength and defense. lets face it the game is kill before your killed strength 4 dont need a 6 to kill until d7. i know your gonna say there are a lot of troops with shields that have d7. well shamans and saruman compliment that with shatter shields. pikes are not useless but theyre not game breakers either. at best they will give your opponent one more thing to deal with and as has been said they negate cavalry. orcs orcs orcs, orcs are every where and thats how tolkien would have wanted it. my orcs provide screens for my uruks and attempt to hit enemy flanks. use them to escort sappers to their goal then boom. cross bows i see most people love them but im not a fan. they are immobile and ranged units (excluding siege equipment) doesnt seem to do enough damage. with at the doubles and spells like wings of terrori cant justify spending points on any type of bow. i like dwarf bows because they are good defense and nice in combat for the price but crossbows for the points, cost in dollars and low defence dont do it for me.

Rare: berserkers are invaluable. as i said throw a hero in to keep them in line and watch them dismantle the enemy. warg riders in my army these guys hit enemy flanks or will even charge headlong into the front if the enemy is almost destroyed. their prowler rule with the strength 4 make them deadly when hitting flanks and rears. sappers i used once with little success but i did not use them as i described above. they would also be useful to hold objectives or passes as even if the enemy fights through them the enemy will take heavy losses

Legendary: for my money mauhurs marauders have made up my scout contingent. getting extra kills for winning the fight who hates that beside your opponent. ugluks rule i dont like so i never use him and have yet to see him used effectively. Sharku is my other legendary home boy. prowler plus terror on the charge and added might make him one half of my cavalry.

upgrades and add ons: shamans are a good fit for isengard their shatter shields will bring most troops down to a defence that the uruks can wound on a 5 and with that out of the saruman can epic ruination for free and stick to the killing.

all the rest i have not given any thought to or have not seen used

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