Looking at WD366 and the statline for the new Blackroot Vale Archers I can't help wondering how the point cost is calculated.

The new model compares to the normal rangers but with less fight and less courage. On the plus side they get a special rule usable only vs monsters.
However they cost the same as the rangers!!

In most costing formulas I've seen for LotR one stat point equals one point cost, so this means the BVA should cost 6 points without the special rule. I don't see how this rule should be worth 2 points. 7 would have been the appropriate point cost. At 8 they will only be used when you are sure to meet monsters.

How about comparing to a 6 point haradrim warrior with bow? Then it becomes even more obvious that something is wrong here.

Am I missing something here?

_________________
LotR and WotR army builder

Yup, not worth the points unless you know you will be up against 'soft' monsters. Bit of a pointless ability if you need 6/6 to wound in the first place, certainly not worth 1pt let alone 2pts - better off with better stats of a normal Ranger.

The courage of both Duinhir and the archers bugs me. That's the first Orc-like courage I've seen on the Good side, and doesn't reflect their storied loyalty and perseverance.

It sounds like they will require a "house rule" to make them proper...

Well it seems GW went of track with the Fiefdoms being more powerful than the actual military. I HATE and I mean HATE the points cost, the which only happens in select conditions and even then it will be used quickly as whatever you shoot at can only live so long and once its died the rule is useless.

Lets compare it to the Haradrim with bow as Cosworth said.

BV Archer has 1 better shoot value
BV Archer has a mediocre special rule

Haradrim Archer has a better courage
Haradrim Archer has a mediocre special rules.

Haradrim Archer is 2 points less.

Every 6 BV Archers gets you 8 Haradrim Archers!

I would say shoot value and courage are both about the same cost in points, so where has the 2 points come from?

_________________
Sun is by sea-men always hoped for,
when they fare away over the fishes' bath,
until the brine-stallion they bring to land.
OERP

Well, if you field 10 of them, and they take down a Mumak (or make it fail a Courage test), you've pretty much won the game by spending 20 points.

As well as the courage, I really don't like the "rock-paper-scissors" direction of this rule. It takes the focus off building a solid list and learning/using solid tactics, and puts the focus on fielding special troops and hoping the dice help you.

Actually, Warriors of Arnor are as cowardly as Goblins. Even their captains are cowards...

_________________
When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.

Backlog Reduction Oath Participant - 6/53

Ah, you're right. But their stat fits better with the story.

I agree with you their. And I agree with you that the courage of the BV archers and Duinhir himself is too low. Given that Duinhir is a brave Lord of Gondor, his courage should at the least be 5 and his points cost brought up to 80.

_________________
When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.

Backlog Reduction Oath Participant - 6/53

The customer service answer from GW concerning the Blackroot Vale Archers is:

_________________
LotR and WotR army builder

Uh huh, killing trolls pretty easy? I don't think so. They'll need 6 followed by 4s on a simple mordor troll and 1 re-roll? Not amazing to be honest. In most games you won't even know if you're facing monsters or not and 8pts. for taking a guess that your enemy will have monsters and only significant if you take many is reallllly not worth the points IMO.

_________________
"War does not determine who is right, only who is left."
- Bertrand Russel

I agree with spuds4ever.

Is there any explanation in their description for the low courage?

_________________
"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings

Now with the new rules being introduced with the Hobbit I think they will shortly be brought to limelight only for people to realize that they still aren't worth it.

With the new rules making monsters better and so more common and FAQ that says they can re-roll both dice if they the have to roll for 6/4,5,6 then they do have some heighten use but the're still a little iffy

P.S. been away from the site for a while loving the new background and layout

Wrong dear fellow. Haradrim went up by 1 pt, they're only 1 less than blackroot vale

_________________
"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

Yes, but look at the original posting date. 2 and a half years ago when he wrote that, he was absolutely correct.

_________________
Gondor: 2339pts
Rohan: 1318pts
Dwarves: 2482pts
Elves: 1091pts
Mordor: 2305pts
Isengard: 1762pts
Moria: 1463pts
Evil Men: 381pts

I could see them now being ALMOST worth it, but still not quite. However, a simple house rule of making them a point cheaper or giving them elf bows would suddenly make them very desirable warriors. Also, I think the whole background for them and the reason they have low courage is because they're just hunters who are good at taking out big game, but not scary big game. (yes, I know I'm answering a 2 year old question)

_________________
"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

But they had the balls to stand UNDER the Mumakil and shoot upwards at them. That rings of more than C2!

_________________
Gondor: 2339pts
Rohan: 1318pts
Dwarves: 2482pts
Elves: 1091pts
Mordor: 2305pts
Isengard: 1762pts
Moria: 1463pts
Evil Men: 381pts

They shot the eyes, not the stomach.

_________________
"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

They were still underfoot, as Duinhir's sons were trampled. Getting close to the Mumakil at all was no small feat.

_________________
Gondor: 2339pts
Rohan: 1318pts
Dwarves: 2482pts
Elves: 1091pts
Mordor: 2305pts
Isengard: 1762pts
Moria: 1463pts
Evil Men: 381pts