I think men were generally stronger than Elves, and certain races may have been as resilient (Dol Amroth comes to mind). Their combat skills were certainly not much worse, if at all. Sure, the men weren't as brave or fast, but I think you're exaggerating.

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"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings

No I'm really not. Read his works and you soon learn that Elves, particularly the first born, couldn't die from old age, they could not tire from fatigue except in extreme circumstances, they were stronger, faster, more intelligent than any other race. They were almost immune to poison and disease.

Glorfindal is proof of this. In the fellowship of the Ring we are told that the few who could ride openly against the nine are sent out... One of those is Glorfindal and he marches Aragorn into the ground.

It's just that normal fantasy explains away the elves as fast, dexterous but weak.... Tolkien's elves are more similar to christopher Paloni's elves (though it pains me to say it I can take solace in the fact that his elves are based off Tolkiens)

Brutoni, I think what you said applies to the Eldar. But this thread is on the Silvan Elves, who weren't as powerful.

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"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings

Your right, they were not as capable as the Noldor. Or even the Sindar. They were however still more than a match for your normal man. Jackson's films have really done in peoples understanding of just how capable the elves were. They also caused real problems with people understanding how powerful Gandalf was, and the Witchking was.... But that's another topic we should avoid it.


Elves in Tolkiens world were more capable than the average man. Even in the 3rd age the average elf was more formidable in every way than the average man because men too had declined.

EDIT: At least that was always my impression from having read the Lord of the Rings, the Silmarillion and the unfinished tales

I think you're right about the elves generally, but about the decline...only the Numenorians declined, the rest of Men stayed pretty much as they had been in the beginning.

So how does this translate to the game? Do *all* elves cause terror, or have a free Fate roll, or...?

Perhaps the best option would be to give all elves high fighting skill values (though perhaps not equally high), and high courage, as this, in my humble opinion, is the best way to represent the elves in the game. I know you want to make them a skirmish force, but it sort of defeats the purpose of the entire "by the book" project if you just tailor armies for some particular role by giving them stats which don't represent the warriors themselves as they were described in the book. The free fate roll and terror could be reserved for only the more powerful races of elves. Wargear options and special rules can be used to change the way players use the elves, which may be the best way to give them their own particular flavour. Maybe you could give them a special rule where they recieve +1 to hit and on in the way shots when shooting at targets within 12", allowing them to be more effective at a shorter range, which suits their woodland habitiat. This rule isn't largely effective, so you could give it to them for free, allowing you to keep costs down a little.

Thanks for the discussion, I'm hoping to get to a revision next week. No more F2 I thought it might work game-wise, but you guys are right, it doesn't have the right flavour.

I agree with most of the rest of what you've said, but I think there was one trait in which men, in general, surprassed the Elves (at least the Silvan Elves). Men were, in my opinion, physically stronger than Elves.

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"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings

No, men were not stronger physically than elves. I've found a quote from the Silmarillion which is the only place i can quickly find a comparison between men and elves.

'In those days Elves and Men were of like stature and strength of body, but the Elves had greater wisdom, and skill, and beauty; and those who had dwelt in Valinor and looked upon the Powers as much surpassed the Dark Elves in this as they in turn surpassed the people of the mortal races.'

now i know this is from the 1st age but although elves have declined they have not done it physically from when they were created. There is just less of them and they have lost much of the knowledge and skills gained from the 1st age. In the same way men have not got stronger physically. They are just more numerous than they were and many of them are more advanced with the exception of the numneorians as they were brought up to almost as powerful as the elves when they met and fought for them in the 1st age.

Another quick quote to support elves not being as they are commonly percieved due to warhammer elves.
'But Men were more frail, more easily slain by weapon or mischance, and less easily healed; subject to sickness and many ills; and they grew old and died.'
This is for all types of elves for they are described as far exceeding any human in these areas of skill, knowledge and wisdom, but the elves from Valinor, ie the Noldor, exceeded the sindar and silvan elves by as much as they exceeded Men.

No man except Aragorn could hope to match an elf in a fight as they are just quicker and more skillful than them.

I'm still not sure that's correct, you only need to look at the feats which elves commited in the Unfinished tales and the Silmarillion to figure this out. Tolkien described his elves as "graceful but strong".

I can't find my Silmarillion book at the moment but when I do I will look up the passage I am seeking.

In either case, this provides us with a problem.... By the book elves should be exceptionally powerful and this won't mesh well with the game.

Here's two quotes off the top of my head (so they might not be 100% correct):

"It would not be easy, even if we were all men" - Boromir, referring to transporting the Lorien boats across land

"And no blade could pierce her hide... though the hand of Beren or Turin wield it" - referring to Shelob

I know both of those quotes don't specifically say that men were stronger than Elves, but both seem to suggest it.

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"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings

It's Boromir talking, and he's probably referring to the fact that half of the party is hobbits.



A casual reference to heroes of the past doesn't imply anything about the relative abilities of the races.

Yeah, I know neither quote was that good but they were the best I could think of. I still stick with what I said though: men were, in general, physically stronger than the Silvan Elves.

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"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings

How can you hold to that when two direct quotes stating otherwise have been found in the Silmarillion. All you have in counter is two very indirect quotes that can be interrupted in many ways?

As I said, when I have the time I will find the quotes I am talking about but I really do think you are mixing fantasy styles here. Tolkien's elves were not physically weak in any way, shape or form.

I dont get it.. the quote you guys said about elves being stronger than men is just saying that elves are more skillfull and have more wisdom. it says nothing about them being stronger, just that they were similar.

I don't mean that Elves are especially weak, just that men are stronger.

I've thought of better quote, but it still isn't that good:

"Come, Boromir! We will carry them" - Aragorn to Boromir, referring to Frodo and Sam after escaping Moria

It was also Aragorn and Boromir that freed the Fellowship from the mountains, using their strength to form a path through the snow.

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"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings

I dont say that elves are stronger than men, i say they are equal.

and that quote after Moria is probably because a dwarf is going to struggle to carry a hobbit any distance simply due to his size but not his strength.

They freed the Fellowship from the mountains because Gimli was too short, the hobbits obviously couldnt do it either and Legolas was running over the snow and didn't sink into it so it would make no sense for him to do it.

The main reason for any Fellowship quotes is because there are two men and one elf and it makes sense that the best archer is always ready to shoot in the case of someone following them.

What about the Elf prince who had a greater stamina then anyone in the Fellowship?

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"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings

Aragorn was no normal man, he was heir to the throne of Gondor, a Dunadean and generally really quite kick ass. He spent most of his life fighting against evil.

Boromir was closer to legolas than Aragorn because Legolas wasn't a first born elf, nor was he a Noldor and so in that particular case Aragorn was always going to come out on top!

Elves are not weaker than men, it's just a fact. Something that people have a real problem imagining because none of us want to view men as the under dogs... Which is exactly what they are in Tolkiens world.

What im still confused. This seems like such a pointless argument and brutoni your just changing your opinon. Before you said that elves were stronger than men now your saying there equal.