168" RANGE BOWS!!1

as for hurin killing 70 trolls, how about this? Hurin:
f s d a w c
10 10 10 1000,000 100 8

@ whafrog: looking good. i like the combat insight and pride of the noldor rules. in regards to arvhers, if not a better shoot value, how about an increased range? (though maybe less than 168")
also, shouldn't the mithril armour be 3 points as it gives the wearer as much defence as a shield and heavy armour?
anyway, as i said, looking good so far, and so are the sindar and sylvan elves.

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Hello.

Thanks for the comments. I originally made the mithril armour 4 points because if you add a shield you cross into Def7, which is a huge change against Str2 bows and Str4 opponents. But it's no change against Str3 opponents, so maybe it's not a big deal.

4+ shoot and 30" range? I'm thinking the Sindar were the real archers, maybe they should get the extra range.

could be good idea




- remove resistant to magic (-1)
- add pride of noldor (-1)
basic cost 13+3 mithril = a decent D6 elf warrior

Little bit costy, but may be this is how they should be with all those qualities. they're not supposed to be core units but elites as you mentioned.
And for this same reason I think it's safe to drop mithiril to 3pts and let the high cost limit the usage.

an extreme idea is to raise their shield cost to 2pts as it could also be special craft made shields, after all it allows shielding too so HA+Shield should cost more than mithril armour.

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OFTENTIME,THE SHADOWS SERVE NOT ONLY TO CONCEAL THOSE WHO WISH TO DO EVIL,BUT ALSO PROTECT THOSE WHO SEEK TO DO GOOD

I guess I don't understand where the pride idea comes from. Where in the literature does Tolkien suggest such a thing?

I quickly gathered those from the spots I remember in the book, but there are many researches you can find on the internet also discussing the same about Noldor in tolkien literature.

The Silmarillion:

"Thus ere the Valar were aware, the peace of Valinor was poisoned. The Noldor began to murmur against them, and many became filled with pride, forgetting how much of what they had and knew came to them in gift from the Valar."

"And when Melkor saw that these lies were smoldering, and that pride and anger were awake among the Noldor, he spoke to them concerning weapons; and in that time the Noldor began the smithying of swords and axes and spears."

"Then there was great unrest in Tirion, and Finwë was troubled; and he summoned all his lords to council. But Fingolfin hastened to his halls and stood before him, saying: 'King and father, wilt thou not restrain the pride of our brother, Curufinwë, who is called the Spirit of Fire, all too truly? By what right does he speak for all our people, as if he were King?..."

"Fëanor was a master of words, and his tongue had great power over hearts when he would use it; and that night he made a speech before the Noldor which they ever remembered. Fierce and few were his words, and filled with anger and pride; and hearing them the Noldor were stirred to madness."

"High princes were Fëanor and Fingolfin, the elder sons of Finwë, honoured by all in Aman; but now they grew proud and jealous each of his rights and his possessions."

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OFTENTIME,THE SHADOWS SERVE NOT ONLY TO CONCEAL THOSE WHO WISH TO DO EVIL,BUT ALSO PROTECT THOSE WHO SEEK TO DO GOOD

Yes, this is all pre-First Age stuff. If the game was set at that time I'd agree some sort of pride rule could be useful or add flavour. But the game is set up for 2nd and 3rd age, and by then the Noldor had come to grips with it.

Also, it was the charisma of certain leaders that drove the bulk of the pride, the chief ones being Feanor and his sons (except Maeglor). By the end of the first age they were all dead or lost.

In any case, the whole point of the Silmarilion is the cleansing of that pride. The Valar didn't come to help until the Noldor were entirely defeated, humbled and humiliated, and managed to send an emissary to beg for help.

Reading the LotR, pride is the last emotion present among the elves.

ok, according to Tolkien literature studies, the pride emotion was never cleansed from the Noldor as you mentioned. now it's my turn to ask, Where in the literature does Tolkien suggest such a thing?


studies suggests that pride is major Noldor's characteristic in all Tolkien literature, the important point that may raise such an argument here is that some of the Noldor was strong enough to control and direct Pride correctly and some others' Pride lead them to folly deeds.
I like this explanation and so I am representing it here as a point of view, but this is just me. I sure know that nothing should go into our work here unless agreed upon so I am not pushing anything, only representing and suggesting for the sake of dicussion.


I couldn't disagree more with you and let me represent my argument in haste:
- Tolkien explicitly mentioned Noldor (generally) was more than once in the context to illustrate that their pride totally affected their judgement. It was not but a few words that triggered their pride (and against the Valar!!). see how many times their Pride was mentioned in the text. may be it's more clearer in leaders because they can enforce actions, but it certainly wasn't just their leaders.
- Tolkien explicitly mentioned Faenor, all his sons, and you forgot Fingolfin among the victims of their own pride. who are pretty much most of the influencial leaders at this time.
- Tolkien was deliberately showing the effect of the ring on most of the creatures on the third age (in all ages if you would agree) to uncover their deepest emotions as the ring effect should indeed do. Familiar with this? "You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!". Yes, it's Galadriel. it's an elf emotion and if that's not Pride, then I don't know what it could be. controlled Pride yes as strong queen as she is, but Pride still it is. so not only pre-historic Pride.
- lastly, a broken pride is never a dying pride.

that said, I may agree with you on that how much effect Pride has on each hero could be personality specific and how can (s)he handles it. so I could suggest to use courage test instead of 50/50 roll in the Pride of Noldor rule to show that some Noldor heroes has more control overt their Pride than others. it could not worth a full -1 point then, but along with the shooting range increase it could make up for a whole -1pts in cost.


I couldn't find exact studies in a glance, but for more reading here is one I quickly found http://www.thecimmerian.com/?p=10445. a better search could give better results.


as for the Combat insight rule, and on second thought I think 2 wounding dice may be too much. I think I like the shielding rule alternative you suggested more and that could support the idea to offer the special shield option with 2pts cost (may be it's mithril shield, lighter and harder).

so here is my suggestion, updating TheFlameoftheWest profile:




I appologize for somehow long post, and again it's just represnting a point of view that I find very much interesting and telling...

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OFTENTIME,THE SHADOWS SERVE NOT ONLY TO CONCEAL THOSE WHO WISH TO DO EVIL,BUT ALSO PROTECT THOSE WHO SEEK TO DO GOOD

Right here, for one:



...and she turns away. Saying how powerful she'd if she took the Ring isn't pride, simply reality. IMHO the most interesting part of her speech isn't the recognition of her abilities, it's the recognition of how terrible it would be.



I'm not sure what you mean. If you mean that people never learn and prideful people can't change, I must vehemently disagree.

In any case, I'm not sure that your particular pride rule reflects what you want it to reflect. What it does is prevent them from working together...but except for the Sons of Feanor and Feanor himself, they did work together. After the death of the Sons, they all worked together.

Pride takes many forms, it could as easily be like a bodyguard rule (too stubborn to retreat) as a sociopathic rule (too haughty to work together).



Interesting idea, putting the cost on the equipment. I agree giving the profile 2 full attacks is too much, plus it doesn't leave room for a "real" elite that does have 2 full attacks. Here's a list of how this might be handled, I'm curious what people think of each:

1. Special rule: each Noldor acts as if under a banner, though only one extra die may be rolled for a single fight. Statistical cost is roughly 1/2 a full extra attack (2 points).

2. Special rule: a Noldor acts as if under a banner only if outnumbered. This would be cheapest, as 1-on-1 fights would be normal (1 point).

3. Special rule: a Noldor with a shield may shield and still strike to wound if he wins the fight. Probably wouldn't want to field a Noldor without a shield, which means the cost is 2 points to the profile, +1 for equipment.

4. Special equipment, mithril shield: a Noldor can shield and still strike to wound if he wins the fight. Puts all the cost on the equipment, but it's probably a 3 pointer, 2 points for the ability and 1 point for the defense.

...any other ideas?

I'm partial to #2. It keeps the profile cost down, and might even incorporate a bit of pride. Maybe the Noldor is thinking "this one measly goblin isn't worth my full effort...oops!"

why not add a poll with the four options to see how people think

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OFTENTIME,THE SHADOWS SERVE NOT ONLY TO CONCEAL THOSE WHO WISH TO DO EVIL,BUT ALSO PROTECT THOSE WHO SEEK TO DO GOOD

I'm partial to the second option, myself.

I'd rather hear their reasons, and people might have other options.

they still can post their comment and other options if they want to.

BTW, I think mithril shield should cost about 2 points only. it's like adding only 1 extra fight dice to a normal 1 attack warrior. so instead of 1D6 fight + 1D6 wound, it will be 2D6 fight + 1D6 wound.
it should be normal shield cost (1pt) + about half of an extra attack cost. so only one point over a normal shield cost.

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OFTENTIME,THE SHADOWS SERVE NOT ONLY TO CONCEAL THOSE WHO WISH TO DO EVIL,BUT ALSO PROTECT THOSE WHO SEEK TO DO GOOD

Hi guys.

I can clerly see now that the Noldor is one of the hardest races to handle in this project.

I do not like the pride thing originally suggested by Muslim Rohirrim because I can't find any event after the 2nd age where elves (or mainly Noldor) seem to disagree between each other.

"I'll be back" (terminator)

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Link to "ByThe Book"

I think we should limit Special Rules as much as possible because every Noldor hero (Gil-Galad, Galadriel, Feanor & his sons, Fingolfin, etc......) should also be given said rule.

Note that heroes of the 1st age will not be made in this project as the task of making them worthy without ruining the game is far too big for us.

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Link to "ByThe Book"

Hi Gothmog, welcome back! Yep, this is the toughest one to get right. The only special rules I feel strongly about is Combat Insight or its equivalent, and Terror. I'm re-reading LotR, and Gollum goes on about "terrible Elves and their bright eyes". I'm sure the Orcs feel the same way. Though he says this about all Elves, not just Noldor.

welcome back Gothmog!

Gollum was afraid of almost everything as it was part of his character. but I think Noldor could still get the light of aman rule.

as for combat insight effect we need to agree on which option to use.

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OFTENTIME,THE SHADOWS SERVE NOT ONLY TO CONCEAL THOSE WHO WISH TO DO EVIL,BUT ALSO PROTECT THOSE WHO SEEK TO DO GOOD

Okay, here's a breakdown of the profile. As with most profiles, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, but a rough idea of what each part costs is:

F.. S D A W C M W F Pts
5/4+ 3 3 1 1 5 - - - 7 points

Includes hand weapon. Note that Noldor do not get the Woodcraft/Woodland creature special rule.

Other equipment:
Other equipment: elf blade, armour, shield...1 point
Elf bow, heavy armour, spear...2 points
Mithril armour (+3 Def)...3 points

Special rules:
Resistent to Magic - 1 point: as per original rules
Light of Aman - 1 point: all Noldor have seen, or are directly descended from those who have seen, the Light of the Undying lands. As such, they cause Terror.
Heroic Legacy - 1 point: if outnumbered, a Noldor counts as being under a banner. This does not stack with an actual banner.
Fate of the Noldor - 2 points: On a roll of 6, a Noldor can avoid a wound, exactly as if a point of Fate had been used.

So, what should be kept and dropped? I'm happy to drop Fate and Resistence, making a base naked Noldor with a hand-weapon 9 points. I prefer Heroic Legacy (aka Combat Insight) to other options because it's the cheapest, simplest, and doesn't rely on equipment.

This means a fully outfitted melee Noldor would be:

F.. S D A W C M W F Pts
5/4+ 3 7 1 1 5 - - - 14 points

Includes spear, mithril armour, shield

Or maybe Mithril armour gives Resistence to Magic for 4 points instead of 3...?

I prefer to drop the resistant and fate rules too. especially the resistant rule as I still feel it belongs to the hobbits, not only because I feel they deserve it more than the elves, but also what would you give them as a differential advantage if you take this advantage over other races away from them?

I agree with the rest of the profile with only one point. why would I take a mithril armor (+3 D), if I can take a heavy armor and shield (+3 D and Shielding) for the same 3 points of cost.
the only exception will be bowmen which will not benefit from the shield defense anyway. do you think giving a 6D to archer is somehow overpowering them?

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OFTENTIME,THE SHADOWS SERVE NOT ONLY TO CONCEAL THOSE WHO WISH TO DO EVIL,BUT ALSO PROTECT THOSE WHO SEEK TO DO GOOD