This is an other By the Book thread, which attempts to come up with profiles that more closely fit Tolkien's books. The intro thread is here: http://www.one-ring.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17568

Tolkien specified many different types of Elves, but for gaming purposes they can be divided into three main groups. This thread deals with Noldor Elves.

These are the High Elves, of Beleriand in the First Age, of Eregion in the Second Age, Grey Havens and Rivendell in the Third Age. They are the Elves, and descendents of Elves, who finished the long journey into the West, then returned to fight Morgoth after he stole the Silmarils. Many died in the Last Alliance war, and many of the remainder have left Middle-Earth. In the Third Age there are few left.

Their martial and spiritual prowess is unparalleled. No mere Corsair or Mahud comes close! But they did not use bows as often as their less powerful counterparts, and so are not quite as accurate.

F.. S D A W C M W F Pts
5/4+ 3 3 1 1 5 - - - 12 points

Each Noldor carries a hand weapon.

Other equipment:
Other equipment: elf blade, armour, shield...1 point
Elf bow, heavy armour, spear...2 points
Mithril armour (+3 Def)...4 points

Special rules:
Resistent to Magic: as per original rules
Light of Aman: all Noldor have seen, or are directly descended from those who have seen, the Light of the Undying lands. As such, they cause Terror.
Fate of the Noldor: On a roll of 6, a Noldor can avoid a wound, exactly as if a point of Fate had been used.
Combat insight: always count as if being under the influence of a banner. However, only one model in a fight is allowed to reroll.
Phalanx: as per Easterlings

Great to be back on track!

ok, let me start by asking you why the 12 points. the status is the same as the wood elf warrior has the same status and he costs only 7 points. is it because of the 5 special rules.

I think we should illustrate their pride as a negative rule. may be in their heroes profiles. quick thought, may be something like this:

Pride of The Noldor (-1 point): If a multiple Heroes army includes Noldor Heores, Noldor warriors are divided equally between Noldor Heroes before the the battle begins. only one Noldor hero and his army portion may be deployed normally. Each remaining Noldor Hero arrives with his army portion only on 4+ roll taken at beginning of each move phase including the first.

I have a feeling they have lot of powerful special rules. does Phalanx rule fits with them?

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OFTENTIME,THE SHADOWS SERVE NOT ONLY TO CONCEAL THOSE WHO WISH TO DO EVIL,BUT ALSO PROTECT THOSE WHO SEEK TO DO GOOD

The profile is the same except for the shoot value. But the special rules are pretty powerful. Essentially each Noldor has two dice because of the banner effect (unless they outnumber their opponent) though they only have one chance to wound. This also means they don't have to field a banner. They also have the option of D7, though it's expensive. I'd be happy to drop the Fate rule, it's probably worth a point.

I included the phalanx rule so that we could use existing models without converting to pikes. I figured they had to be pretty disciplined...you don't hold back the forces of Morgoth, or storm Barad-dur, without knowing what you're doing.

Not sure I like the pride rule. It could fit for the Sons of Feanor, but I think by the 3rd Age all that pride would have been whipped out of them.

As soon as I read the Noldor Pride rule I immediately thought it should be saved for Feanor and/or his sons.

I do not like combat insight. The Noldor carried banners and there would be no reason to field them with that rule. It also may be a bit over-powered. Otherwise I like the base warrior profile.

My original though with the Noldor was to give them all 2 attacks like a Berzerker, but that also gives them 2 wound rolls and makes them more expensive. This rule lets them handle 2 opponents (as they should be able to do, IMHO), but keeps the wound roll to 1, reducing the cost. If you can think of another mechanic to accomplish that, I'm all ears.

I think they are worthy of 2 attacks but they should only be saved as elites for elf armies. I don't like the pride rule much, it could be a lot more simple

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"War does not determine who is right, only who is left."
- Bertrand Russel

let me see if I understand our categorization:

Noldor=Rivendel & Gray Haven (Models: High Elves)
Sindar=Lothlorien (Models: Galadhrim)
Sylvan=Mirkwood (Models: Wood Elves)

Ok, about Pride of Noldor it was a quick though from the top of my head so I agree that it could need adjustments. Though I think pride was both in Faenor and Fingolfin which pretty much covers all Noldor.

[Thinking Loudly]I still think they are overpowered normal warriors for the game balance. most of the normal warriors in the game has max. 1-2 special rules, and we still to make more powerful characters out of their Heroes.
If I may choose I would give them "Light of Aman" and "Fate of Noldor".
As for "Resistent to Magic", many races have different level of magic resistant, hobbits sure do, dwarves to some level. but unless we have a rule to give different levels of the quality I would prefer to stick with giving it to the most likely race (hobbits in this case) to keep their deferential advantage in the game (same with Phalanx I guess).[/Thinking Loudly]

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OFTENTIME,THE SHADOWS SERVE NOT ONLY TO CONCEAL THOSE WHO WISH TO DO EVIL,BUT ALSO PROTECT THOSE WHO SEEK TO DO GOOD

Here's my attempt...

F...5/4+
S...3
D...3
A...2
W...1
C...5
Pts...15
Special Rules...



Elven Cloak...5 points

Might be an idea to give them S4 to compensate for all the D6 Evil dudes about now, would have more effect than the phalanx rule, don't like that for the easterlings due to cost of 2pt spears, have 3 elves in a row and its costing 51pts a row!

I think I like that. nice call!

I am not sure I like giving them S4 though.

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OFTENTIME,THE SHADOWS SERVE NOT ONLY TO CONCEAL THOSE WHO WISH TO DO EVIL,BUT ALSO PROTECT THOSE WHO SEEK TO DO GOOD

I think that you should drop Resistant to Magic. After all, Elves are not stubborn like Dwarves and Hobbits, and you have given them too many special rules anyway. If I played with these rules at my club, they might kick me out for powergaming. TheFlameOftheWest's one I like better.
All IMHO, of course.

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"Woe to the Vanquished!"
-Brennus-

oh, just noticed resistant to magic is still in the profile. as I mentioned above I am with dropping it.

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OFTENTIME,THE SHADOWS SERVE NOT ONLY TO CONCEAL THOSE WHO WISH TO DO EVIL,BUT ALSO PROTECT THOSE WHO SEEK TO DO GOOD

Thanks for everybody's ideas!

The trouble with the Noldor is they're all elite, and you can't make an army of elites with these rules. It's quantity over quality nearly every time. IMHO a Noldor should be able to handle 2 or even 3 goblins on even terms, and the only way the game supports this is giving more dice. But if those dice can also used to wound it drives up the point cost. Hence the Combat Insight rule...it adds a die to stay alive, but still only gives one chance to wound.

A similar option might be a special shielding rule: Noldor with shields roll an extra die in the fight and can still strike to wound. This would reduce costs even further as those without shields wouldn't get this rule.

Another option: a rule that allows a Noldor to roll an extra die in a fight if outnumbered.

I'd be happier dropping the Fate rule over the Combat Insight rule to save points...I don't find it very useful even when playing Goblins.

I don't think S4 is necessary...after the other races are refactored, there probably won't be S4 base warriors (except maybe rare elites).

Also, about the Resistant to Magic: from what I gather, Tolkien's view of magic was more of a spiritual state of being, and the elves were a lot closer to that than other races, and especially those who'd been to the Undying Lands. It was part of their being. Hobbits and Dwarves had their own ways of resisting, but Men and Orcs were more susceptible.

Yeah, the phalanx rule was an afterthought. Now I'm after-thinking my afterthought Having spears cost 1 point is probably better.

About the Noldor having a lower shooting value: I understand that you probably added that for game-balance purposes, but it doesn't really seem to me to fit with their background.

Page 166 of The Book of Lost Tales Volume II: "Indeed the Gondothlim (aka Elves of Gondolin, Noldor Elves) were mighty archers, and bows they made of a marvel of power. Therewith might they shoot an arrow into heaven seven times as far as could the best bowman among Men shoot at a mark upon the ground."

The Noldor should be elite troops, able to fight off several orc-like creatures. I'm all for giving them an extra dice to roll during fights and to wound because their STR is only 3. Then there is no need for any more special rules (just a few small tweaks in a profile can really alter how a model plays-special rules can change the entire game). I like keeping Light of Aman, Resistance to Magic, & Fate of the Noldor. I believe they definitely should be 'Resistant to Magic' seeing as they defied the will of the Valar to leave the Undying Lands!

....I'm not entirely sure I know the Phalanx rule though...

Perhaps bump their shoot value to 3+, and make them worth 20 points. Then even with all the special rules, I don't think you can consider them powergaming.

I tried finding a profile I felt was close to what we might be trying to represent with the Noldor. At first I considered something along the lines of the Rangers of the North, but I think they are meant to serve as low-level leadership whereas our Noldor would probably fight alongside one or two Ubermenschen heroes. Also, keeping track of so many models and their M/W/F would be tedious.
I then tried comparing a Noldor to an Uruk-Hai Berserker. I effectively traded the Uruk's better courage, STR and DEF for the Elf's higher fight value, ability to shoot, and Special Rules. The Noldor would also have far more wargear options but I think that makes sense as well, and will drive up their points cost before you field a properly maxed-out Noldor warrior ready for battle with Morgoth's hordes.

I also think that if deployed with an Elven Cloak an elf should not be able to use any type of armour except Mithril Armour.

Yep, I saw that and I think your profile is on the money wrt the point cost, but he is naked and easily killed. Adding +3DEF to give him a chance at survival makes him 18 points minimum. I'm pretty sure if we playtested an army of Noldor they'd be wiped out by just about anything. Though Terror might help a lot.

Is the Mithril armour (+3DEF) worth 4 points? Or could it safely be dropped to 3? It would then cost 4 points to get to Def 7.

The Elves of Gondolin were a mix of Sindar and Noldor, as described in the Silmarilion. I haven't reread everything about the Noldor though...and it's true I did trade flavour for balance, and this project is all about flavour You're probably right about leaving their shooting at 3+. Still, I'd rather keep the project influenced by 2nd and 3rd age references. The first age references are so mega-heroic (Hurin killing 70 trolls, etc), the SBG system isn't capable of handling it.