I'd like to join in with this if it's not too much trouble. I was always a fan of righting my own material for these kinds of games.

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That still only counts as one!

Tolkien was clear that Goblin men were an invention of Saruman, Uruk Hai, commonly known as Black Orcs, were Sauron's military counterpoint to the Last Alliance. He did imply that Saruman's Uruk Hai were in some way different from Sauron's.

I hope you don't mind my butting WarForg, I like your profile tweeking a lot. I think you guys are really on to something here.

Rob

I'm in the middle of a reread of LotR partly for this project, and he mentions Sauron's "Uruks of Mordor", but not Uruk-"hai" of Mordor. But I still have a ways to go in the book...just left Lothlorien...so we'll see.

Butt in and make any comments you like

I found it when I was researching the Second Age for my One Ring campaign attempt last year. When I get the chance I'll send you page numbers, but some of it might have been in his letters I think. He keep up an extensive correspondence with fans for decades.

Rob

Interesting. Perhaps we need to refactor the Uruk-hai into "Half-Orcs".

The term "Half-Orc is never used in the books. They are "sallow-faced and squint-eyed men created by Saurman to act as spies. The Chief's men in Hobbiton were Half-Orcs. They were very definitely not Uruks.

Try these page numbers: The Two Towers- 90, 201, Return of the King- 317, 329.

Rob

Thanks, I'll check it out.

I just read a passage where he uses that term, when Gamling is talking at Helm's Deep:

"Yet dawn is ever the hope of men," said Aragorn.
"But these creatures of Isengard, these half-orcs and goblin-men that the foul craft of Saruman has bred, they will not quail at the sun," said Gamling.

But reading up on it (Wikipedia seems pretty thorough), it seems the Uruk-hai were specifically a breed of Orc, not mixed with Men.

But perhaps we do need a Half-Orc/Ruffian profile, as there seems to have been enough of them to create an army with. They seem to have been classic bullies, tough when it's going good, cowardly when faced with resistance. So maybe a base profile like a naked Dunlending (courage 3), but -1 Courage when broken.

Hey Rob!

great to see your comment and meet you again after all this time. I missed joining in last summer campaign, many things drew me out of the hobby for several months.

keep it coming pal!

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OFTENTIME,THE SHADOWS SERVE NOT ONLY TO CONCEAL THOSE WHO WISH TO DO EVIL,BUT ALSO PROTECT THOSE WHO SEEK TO DO GOOD

Damn! My Robert Foster The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth has failed me. That's where I got that quote from. I guess I'll have to stop screwing around and dig up the books. I blame you Whafrog for the countless hours I'll now spend combing through all the books for Orc references.


That's true they are a specific breed, but I do think there is a reference to using men to create this breed. I'll hunt around and see if I can find it.

Rob

Hi Mohammad, nice to see you too! I'm in the middle of creating a modern vampire game on LAF (Lead Adventurers Forum) right now, but I'll help out with some research and peanut gallery comments.

Rob

I think that Uruk-hair were a mix of men and orc created by saruman. The ones he sent as spies to bree, the shire etc were a mainly man mix with some orc in them. The uruk-hai were a mainly orc mix with some man mixed in for more bravery, strength and organisation. Orcs in general are more vicious and bloodthirsty than men i think while men are smarter and more skillful (slightly).

Also, i always believed uruks were created by saruman. Sauron told saruman to make him an army worthy of mordor and he made the uruk-hai. However i haven't really read through the entire works and all the appendices completely and not at all recently so i'm not certain. Sauron may have had the idea earlier and it just didnt work quite as well as Saurman managed it?

Hi Gothmog, could you add the elf links to the first post in this thread?

I'd like to help out with this "By the Book" project, I've been working on some similar ideas.

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"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings