by each host i assume you mean army list from LoME?

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Kill WOTR, yeah?

Exactamundo!

Starting with...
[h3]The Tower of Ecthelion[/h3][split][col]
[itemlist]"This army list represents the forces of Minas Tirith at the time of The War of the Ring. It's warriors are superbly equipped and well trained, with a good selection of elite troops, cavalry, siege engines and Mighty Heroes to lead them into battle."
(Gondor in Flames, pg. 23)[/itemlist]
Because this list represents Minas Tirith at the end of the Third Age, it is the only Gondorian Army that allows Aragorn, King Ellesar.

[itemlist]STRENGTHS
• Powerful Heroes
• Flexible troop selection
• Deadly artillery

WEAKNESSES
• Too much choice (!)[/itemlist]
This Army does have a huge variety of troops to decide from and I foresee that players will spend many hours sweating over the perfect list.
[/col][col][aimg]img477f1220582ad.jpg[/aimg][/col][/split]
Do you agree with the strengths and weaknesses? Which "pure force" would you use (say 500, 600 or 700 points) and how? What allies would you choose? Aragorn or Boromir to lead?

Happy discussions!

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Curunír
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sweet! (can GC be next? )

The Tower of Ecthelion, IMO, is the most flexible list in the game. It has everything from weak (but tactically valuable) heroes to siege machines. the only thing i don't like about this list is denethor. his rule is bad and i think he should only be used for scenarios.

as for who should lead:

0-400: A Captain of Minas Tirith. you really need numbers in these games

401-750: Boromir. he can be fitted in comfortably with a captain, 24 warriors and a banner bearer.

751+:Elessar: He's a killing machine, ecpecially on horse and backed up by a handful of knights and maybe a captain.

here is my army lists that i will use for gondor (when i get round to it ):

500

Leader: Boromir, Captain of the White Tower w/ shield - 180
Captain of Minas Tirith w/ shield - 235
25 Warriors of Minas Tirith
8 w/ Shields
8 w/ Bows
8 w/ Spears and shields
1 w/ banner - 467
3 Citadel Guards
All w/ Spears - 494

Might: 8
Models: 30
Shots/Turn: 8 (S2 [8/10])
Break Point: 15

With this army, you just basically form it up into a good ol` battle line, with Boromir and the Captain in the center to really provide an impact, the Guards making up for the extent, the banner at the very back and the archers covering the advance.

Note: For the next list, i will be expanding on this first one

Note 2: The next list is a 250 point ally option for the first

The Fiefdoms

The fiefdoms make up for what the Tower of Ecthelion lacks in skirmishing troops.

Allied Leader: Angbor the Fearless - 55
12 Clansmen of Lamedon - 127
6 Rangers of Gondor
2 w/ Spears - 177
9 Axemen of Lossarnach - 249

Might: 2 (added on: 10)
Models: 28 (added on: 58)
Shots/Turn: 6 (S2 [6/9 {added on: 14}])
Break Point: 14 (added on: 19)

This list adds skirmishers, and then adds onto the main lists strengths. The Axemen secure a flank and the rangers join the archers. Angbor would lead the Clansmen around the enemies flank, and would try and time the attack s othat they would engage the enemy at the same time as the battle line.

well, i guess that's my 2 cents

rock on

doopy

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Kill WOTR, yeah?

My thoughts:

I agree with your list of strengths but would add a little more detail to them.

Heroes: excellent range of heroes, from Beregond to the two most powerful human figures in the game.

Warriors: Good mix of basic heavy infantry to elite guard troops. D6 and even D7 available; hard-hitting shock cavalry available; even horse archers available.

Archery: choice of S2 or S3 bows

Artillery: Best in the game

Alliances: Nice list of alliance choices, both within and outside Gondor

Weaknesses: Lack of true skirmishers or light infantry, although this is easily remedied as DD pointed out by alliance with fiefdoms or Ithilien

Lack of S4 warriors, or 2-handed weapon alternative (again, easily cured by new fiefdom troops as allies)

Lack of armored horses makes cavalry more vulnerable (although new shield option is major improvement), alliance with fiefdom can help solve.

Lack of any magic available.

Army Lists:
In terms of army list, you have a choice -- all or mostly primary basic troops; a mix of basic and elites; or an all-elite force (when Ecthelion's Guard units are allied with SKoDA, watch out!)

It's handy to have a few guards to hold off those pesky trolls and other terror-causers.

Regardless of mix of basic and elite, the army should be a classic 1/3 shield 1/3 spear 1/3 bow, except that GotFC can serve as shields w/ or w/o them. I like to use CG double-duty with bow & spear, freeing up extra shields for the battle line.

Leaders: I prefer the multiple captain/Faramir approach until around 600 points. Boromir can be too easily neutralized by a wraith, at which point smaller point-level armies are at a big disadvantage.

Elessar comes into the picture around 700-800 for me also (like DD), unless I know I'm playing CoC or Kill the King, at which point I would consider him at lower levels.

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What's taters, Precious? What's taters, eh?

Now that is not true....Where did you leave Gandalf the White he can be allied from the Fellowship...So magic is not such a big problem...

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I am the Mouth of Sauron, here him speak'

FYI, the Strengths and Weaknesses are straight from the sourcebook. I wanted to use them as a basis for discussion and your analysis proved the point perfectly.

It's a real challenge, isn't it; so many powerful Heroes to choose from and yet it almost seems better to take several lesser Heroes. Doopy's list followed a similar pattern.

Great start, any more comments?

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Curunír
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I was referring to the Ecthelion list per se, which unlike the elf lists has no magic available.

However, I also don't consider wizards to be reasonable choices for allies unless you are playing 700+ points. You won't see wizards in tournaments that often, and there's a reason for that -- too expensive at most tournament levels, leaving the army seriously undermanned.

Now for specific scenarios, I'll grant you they can be pretty useful.

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What's taters, Precious? What's taters, eh?

Good point, and thank you for keeping on topic.
I wasn't aware of this. I have very little tournament experience and it's good to here these things. What I gather from your post, most tournament list tend to go for numbers. Does this have to do with the scenarios used? maybe we should take a look at these Gondorian Armies, keeping LOME in mind (which, is of course how they were put together in the first place) and using some "test" scenarios to gauge the list possible effectiveness.

This is going a bit beyond the scope of what I had originally planned, but it does make sense to me to consider the list in a practical sense. So let's try something like this...

Using the Legions of Middle-earth scenarios as a basis:

•Which scenarios do you see a 500 point "Tower of Ecthelion" list dominating?
•Which scenarios do you believe will be a challenge for a 500 point "Tower of Ecthelion" list?
•Which allies (up to 700 points total for Main force and Allies) would you use to counter the weaknesses for those scenarios?

This is just a brain exercise so there is no right or wrong answer. Feel free to adjust the numbers and to give alternative ideas.

Cheers

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Curunír
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Yes. Certain scenarios, such as High Ground, Domination, Reconnoitre, are much easier to win with greater numbers.

I should qualify my prior comment by saying wizards aren't that prevalent in US national tournaments; they may be a little more common in the UK or Oz from what I've read, although some of those tournaments are larger than 500 points.



The Ecthelion list is so versatile that you can create an army with the list that can win just about any scenario, if you design a list to that end. You can also build a balanced list that would do well in most scenarios. This list would include a few Knights, a few guards, and a lot of the sturdy WOMT along with at least 2 heroes.

The one combat weakness of the list w/o allies is lack of light infantry, but there really aren't that many scenarios where that will hurt; Ill Met By Moonlght maybe being one.

To me, the real question at 500 points is to take Boromir or not? If you do, you will have a strong hero for Contest of Champions and Kill a King, but you may be a disadvantage for pitched battle scenarios IF your opponent has a basic wraith. (If your opponent has a wizard, or a souped up wraith, he's spent so much on it that the disadvantage is much less). Of course, if your opponent doesn't have magic, or maybe a bat swarm, he's in trouble. Even a Mordor Troll Chieftain will be hard pressed to handle the big guy.

As for allies you really don't need to go outside Gondor. I heartily agree with Doop Dude on the coolness of the new fiefdom list; it has just about everything other than magic a player could want; rangers, pikes, axemen in particular.

The Ithilien list is nice if you are taking Boromir or Faramir to get those veterans, and a number of medium named heroes too.

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What's taters, Precious? What's taters, eh?

ok, using the list i provided, here's how i think they would go in the scenarios:

against armies like mordor or moria, they would get slaughtered in scenarios like storm the camp, domination, the high ground and reconnoitre, simply because those armies would most likely be pushing the model limit, and have a lot more models to defend/attack/hold objectives. in the next scenarios, i would only expect a minor victory: ill met by moonlight, to the death and a clash of piquets, only because most of the require reinforcement rolls, so the whole force will be on (most likely) before 2/3s of the enemy's. the one's i see this list absolutely taking out are contest of champions, to kill a king, take and hold and seize the prize! the overall high defense of this army would help out a lot, as the warriors would be able to hold out until boromir has either cut up some orc, killed their leader, or pelted off with the prize.

for the scenarios this list will be kicked in the nuts on, i would take as allies (i'm going to increase the allies to 260):

#1 Rohan

Allied Leader: Captain of Rohan on w/shield - 50
25 Warriors of Rohan - 257
8 w/ shields
8 w/ bows
8 w/ throwing spears and shields
1 w/ banner

Might: 2 (added up: 10)
Models: 26 (added up: 56)
Shots/Turn: 8 (all S2 [8/8.6 {all added up: 16 (all S2 [16/18.6])}])
Break Point: 13 (added up: 28)

these allies will help out in numbers, forming a shield wall and good skirmishing troops.

or: #2: the fiefdoms

Allied Leader: Angbor - 55
18 Clansmen of Lamedon - 163
6 Rangers of Gondor - 213
2 w/ Spears
5 Axemen of Lossarnach - 253

Might: 2?? (added on: 10)
Models: 30 (added on: 60)
Shots/Turn: 6 (all S2 [6/10 {all added up: 18 (all S2 [18/20])}])
Break Point: 15 (added on: 30)

this will defiantly help with numbers!

i feel i have proved 2 things here today...

*everyone thinks 'dork!'*

....1: gondor has access to lot's of skirmishers
2: good can get horde armies!

rock on

doopy

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Kill WOTR, yeah?

Thanks everyone for your comments, I'm reading some very good ideas and learning a bit along the way. Cheers!

Next up in the Army List...

[h3]Minas Tirith[/h3][split][col]
[itemlist]"This Minas Tirith army list represents the armies of Gondor across the centuries"
(Gondor in Flames, pg. 32)[/itemlist]
The Minas Tirith Army is a more generic army list which allows players to create "historical" forces from Gondor's past. The most notable weakness is the lack of Heroes for this Army list, a weakness that could easily be overcome through Allies.
[itemlist]STRENGTHS
• Durable Warriors
• Flexible troop selection
• Deadly artillery

WEAKNESSES
• Limited Hero selection[/itemlist]
[/col][col][aimg]img477f125c5a6d2.jpg[/aimg][/col][/split]
The gaming tips in Gondor in Flames focuses on the wide variety of troops available, but do point out the challenge of having no named Heroes. The 500 point sample Army of standard troops is led by a Steward, represented by a King of Men. The historic nature of this list is also reflected in the Allies allowed, including such noted historical figures as the Riders of Eorl and the Host of the Hammerhand.

In addition to general comments, let's continue with our LoME analysis...

Using the Legions of Middle-earth scenarios as a basis:

•Which scenarios do you see a 500 point "Minas Tirith" list dominating?
•Which scenarios do you believe will be a challenge for a 500 point "Minas Tirith" list?
•Which allies (up to 700 points total for Main force and Allies) would you use to counter the weaknesses for those scenarios?

Cheers and happy discussions.

_________________
Curunír
Please visit My Gallery

sweet new list!

now, strengths:

i agree with all of them, although durable warriors could be argued: sure, there's high defense, but average (or below average, depending on how new you are to the hobby) fight values. also, the rangers don't have to good defense: sure, you have to get past their skill to wound them, but then it's pretty easy compared to WoMTs.

I definitely agree with deadly artillery. Avengers can be absolutely lethal with the right upgrades.

Now the weaknesses: again, GW overlooks their own rule on allies! the lack of heroes can be easily made up for with the likes of eorl and helm, as mentioned above.

i see minas tirith dominating no scenarios, but putting up a fair fight for all of them. this is a very balanced list, IMO, and, although not a jack-of-all-trades like the Tower, this would be my first choice when unsure what army my opponent is fielding and what scenarios we are playing.

i'll post up an army list tomorrow, but, in the mean time, rock on

doopy

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Kill WOTR, yeah?

The list is similar to Ecthelion and with the addition of rangers has a broad mix of troop choices, including 3 different archer selections. While it shares many of Ecthelion's strengths and weaknesses, as GW notes the lack of a powerful hero in the list gives the list a real disadvantage in Contest of Champions and To Kill a King.

Doop Dude points out the solution -- Eorl is a good ally as Helm will be when released; Glorfindel, Elrond, Dain, Balin, even the Fellowship (a bad theme choice, but there it is).

Unfortunately, the fight value creep for the fiefdom troops makes this list less attractive than it might have been earlier, since the inability to ally with the fiefdoms makes this more of a Tolkien junkie list, as compared to a pure gamer's list like Ecthelion.

The best army theme I saw this year, by the way, was a pure MT list by Jamie Welling at the Chicago GT. He used a King of Man as Steward Ecthelion, and captains of men as Denethor and Thorongil, with the later being a converted Aragorn figure. Very sweet! It can be seen here.
http://gt.us.games-workshop.com/2007/chicago_coverage/lotr_welling/default.htm

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What's taters, Precious? What's taters, eh?

Hmmm, can it be that you are all getting bored with this topic?

Any more comments before I post the next Army List?

Cheers

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Curunír
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Two comments which caught my attention about this list are...


and...

Only time will tell. I think that we may several variations on Minas Tirith this year at tournaments and it might be interesting to do a review at the end of the year.

Thanks for the comments... up next "The Fiefdoms"!

Cheers

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Curunír
Please visit My Gallery

[h3]The Fiefdoms[/h3][split][col]
[itemlist]The fiefdoms of Gondor remain sworn to Minas Tirith in peace and in war. (Gondor in Flames, pg. 34)[/itemlist]
With the addition of troops from Lamedon and Lossarnach (as well as the Rangers of Morthond, disguised as Rangers of Gondor) the Fiefdoms Army list has finally come into it's own.

[itemlist]STRENGTHS
• Powerful Heroes
• An Army of elites
• Pikemen

WEAKNESSES
• Few in numbers
• Expensive Warriors
• No artillery[/itemlist]
Most gamers tend to focus on how elite these troops really are, with Imrahil topping the list.
[/col][col][aimg]img477f1292d454d.jpg[/aimg][/col][/split]
With a wide range of Allies to choose from, The Fiefdoms would make a great component force of elites for any army. In addition to general comments about this List, let's continue with our LoME analysis...

Using the Legions of Middle-earth scenarios as a basis:

•Which scenarios do you see a 500 point "Minas Tirith" list dominating?
•Which scenarios do you believe will be a challenge for a 500 point "Minas Tirith" list?
•Which allies (up to 700 points total for Main force and Allies) would you use to counter the weaknesses for those scenarios?

Cheers and happy discussions.
[h2][/h2]
P.S By now some of you may have realized that I'm pilfering material from my own recent review article "Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle Game Sourcebook: Gondor in Flames". Think of it as recycling.

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Curunír
Please visit My Gallery

Unbelievable, almost an entire week and no comments? Is it time to hang up the CTD?

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Curunír
Please visit My Gallery

Nope!

Been out of pocket myself. Trip to UK for the GT and all.

Anyway, back on point. The Fiefdoms.

With the addition of the new models, it's possible to build a pretty competitive fiefdoms-only army. You've got the best heavy cavalry in the game, several types of elite infantry, and of course pretty good archery with the rangers. As far as heroes, you can go big-ticket with Imrahil or mid-size with Forlong, Angbor or generic captains. The problem, as GW notes, is cost. You better plan on being outnumbered against most armies.

As far as scenarios the fiefdoms would dominate, a list with Imrahil would do well in the hero-oriented Contest of Champions and To Kill a King. The mounted knights give you the power to do well in mobility-based scenarios such as Recon, Seize the Prize and Storm the Camp. However, pitched battles could be tricky due to model count, particularly if you take Imrahil and I wouldn't prefer to play Clash of Piquettes or To the Death with a Fiefdom Army if I could avoid it since any scenario where battle engages quickly would negate some of the fiefdom's advantages in mobility and formation fighting. Domination could be a problem due to numbers, although the mobility of the Knights might offset that somewhat due to the ability to quickly concentrate on a particular objective. Also, an Isengard White Hand army would be a difficult match for the fiefdoms because the crossbows somewhat negate the advantage of the armored horses, and because the higher fight value only gets you a roll-off against Isengard.

The obvious ally list is Ecthelion, to get the cheap infantry to bolster numbers, but you could also build an interesting cavalry army with a Rohan list. Rohan can provide the mobile missile fire, and the armored SKoDA can shield the unarmored Rohan horses. This is an alliance I expect to try out sometime this year.

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What's taters, Precious? What's taters, eh?

Cheers BoromirsGhost; excellent comments as usual. Seems that everyone else is busy, but let's continue shall we! Next up...

[h3]The Rangers of Ithilien[/h3][split][col]
[itemlist]With sword and spear the Rangers are the equal of the fabled Knights of Dol Amroth, yet their true talents lie elsewhere. (Gondor in Flames, pg.38 )[/itemlist]
Those talents may be summed up with a single word. Archery!

[itemlist]STRENGTHS
• High Fight values
• Deadly archery
• Inexpensive Heroes

WEAKNESSES
• No cavalry
• Elite troops have low Defence
• No artillery[/itemlist]
I sense that that the Rangers of Ithilien will become a major Ally to most Gondor armies.
[/col][col][aimg]img477f133891eb9.jpg[/aimg][/col][/split]
In addition to any general discussion or comments about this list, let's continue with our expanded discussion using the Legions of Middle-earth scenarios as a basis:

•Which scenarios do you see a 500 point "Rangers of Ithilien" list dominating?
•Which scenarios do you believe will be a challenge for a 500 point "Rangers of Ithilien" list?
•Which allies (up to 700 points total for Main force and Allies) would you use to counter the weaknesses for those scenarios?

Cheers and happy discussions.

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Curunír
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Having never played a Legions scenario, I can't really comment on which scenarios they would be good or bad at, but I can discuss allies:

The major weakness of the Rangers of Ithilien army is the expense of cavalry. Allying a Tower of Ecthelion contigent with a Captain of Minas Tirith on horseback, lance, and shield and a small group of Knights (perhaps with a banner) would definately overcome this minor problem.

A fun little combo I've been using as of late is actually inspired by another O-R member, WoodlandCreature. He suggested to ally the Rangers of Ithilien with the Grey Company to get an all ranger force, instead of the mix of Warriors of Minas Tirith. As it stands, you'd need twice as many warriors of Minas Tirith, Citadel Guards, or Osgiliath veterans without bows to field your Rangers, and for those of us wanting to use just Faramir's Rangers, simply take Faramir, Damrod, and madril and ally them with the Grey Company with Dunedain (as veteran rangers) and Rangers of Arnor (as Rangers of Gondor).

Hopefully my tirades were enough to satisfy you Cur...but perhaps it might be time to switch topics to discuss the new Harad sourcebook?

Cheers,
Wolfy

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Tale of 9 Gamers 2010: The Misty Mountains/Angmar:

April: 0/3 choices complete

Yearly total: 50/74 models done O.o