I will repeat myself here - please help me make The Watcher in the Water viable somehow. I honestly love its visual looks and mysteric theme a lot. The problem just is it is a very expensive unit for what it does. Scenarios that would benefit from a strong big bad monster leader don't affect the Watcher, because it is only an independent hero. It also lacks defense to seriously hold its own. In the books the creature blocked entire dwarf kingdom from escaping, but in the game it is d6 w6 so typical s4 enemy dwarves with 2h weapons dmg him with 4+. Also only 1 might, no heroic strike, no heroic defence. Also the tentacles are not reliable, d6 ranged attacks means an average of 3.5. If move then 50% chance means 1.75 shots per turn on strenght 3. In case of cast blinding light enemy only 0.5 shots per turn... Even 1.75 ain't no game changer. Like syre u can be lucky and pull in a few enemies, but the power is underpowered condidering how powerful the creature should be.

Sorry, i dont want to sound overly negative, i just adore the Watcher in the Water character a lot, and i also like the aesthetics of the figure ok, but i cannot understand how to make it competitive game-wise. Like if i take balrog instead i get a built-in combined shaman, powerful leader, better fight stats, similarlish pull ability, high courage, free heroic combat, all kind of things for a bit higher price yes, but not that high price compared to shaman + other hero + watcher would do together to get about the same effects.

Please enlight me, what are the strategies with the Watcher? Is there some kind of alliance that would enhance it? Or should i give up and hope for buffs in the future?

Would my army win agaisnt archer-heavy enemies, biggest monsters, Iron Hills, massed terror and multiple spell casters?

Maybe fellbeast would bring versatility?

Moria + Mordor(700p, 41 units, 8 might):
*Khamul on fellbeast
-10 morannon orcs with shields and spears
*Durburz
-10 goblins with shields
-5 goblins with spears
*Goblin captain
-8 goblins with shields
-4 goblins with spears
*Watcher in the Water

Or maybe goblin drums is actually useful?

Moria (700p, 54 units, 10 might):
*Durburz
-goblin drum
-13 goblins with bows
*Goblin captain
-2 prowlers
-5 goblins with shields
-5 goblins with spears
*Goblin captain
-2 prowlers
-5 goblins with shields
-5 goblins with spears
*Goblin captain
-5 goblins with shields
-5 goblins with bows and spears
*Watcher in the water

Or maybe need 2 monster to win, spiderqueen is fast and strong?

Denizens of Mirkwood + Moria(698p, 45 units, 11 might):
*The Spider Queen 115p
-1 bat swarm 35p
*Durburz the goblin king 70p
-5 goblins w/ shields 25p
-5 goblins w/ spears 25p
-5 goblins w/ bows & spears 30p
*Goblin captain 35p
-4 goblins w/ shields 20p
-4 goblins w/ spears 20p
-4 goblins w bows & spears 24p
*Goblin captain 35p
-4 goblins w/ shields 20p
-4 goblins w/ spears 20p
-4 goblins w/ bows & spears 24p
*The Watcher in the water 200p

Or maybe 25 orc bows would win?

Moria(700p, 66 units, 11 might):
*Goblin captain w/ bow
-4 goblins w/ shields
-4 goblins w/ spears
-4 goblins w/ bows
*Goblin captain w/ bow
-4 goblins w/ shields
-4 goblins w/ spears
-4 goblins w/ bows
*Goblin captain w/ bow
-4 goblins w/ shields
-4 goblins w/ spears
-4 goblins w/ bows
*Goblin captain w/ bow
-4 goblins w/ shields
-4 goblins w/ spears
-4 goblins w/ bows
*Goblin captain w/ bow
-4 goblins w/ shields
-4 goblins w/ spears
-4 goblins w/ bows
*Watcher in the Water

Or maybe troll chieftain and wargs?

Angmar + Moria(698p, 46 units, 9 might):
*Buhrdur 110p
-15 wild wargs 105p
*Durburz 70p
-1 bat swarm 35p
-7 goblins with shields 35p
-7 goblins with spears & shields 42p
*Goblin Captain 35p
-6 goblins with shields 30p
-6 goblins with spears and shields 36p
*Watcher in the water 200p 698

Hi Salattu, I like your second army most, the pure Moria one with the drum. Maybe I would reduce the number of bows in it.

In the past I put about seven Goblins with spear and shield into a tournament army of Moria. This had the effect of strengthening the battle line a bit more than usual.

Thinking about the watcher, as he has only 3" of movement, so he is quite static. Therefore one could use him as some kind of bastion on the battlefield, maybe guarding an opening between two obstacles or for anchoring one end of the battle line. I then would give him an additional screen of goblins, to delay direct combat against the watcher, and use him more as a battery with shooting attacks, either killing other models directly or pulling a single one into melee behind his goblins screen.

Another idea: if possible the watcher could be placed in a piece of water terrain. Then he has movement of 6", and if he kills an enemy by drowning, he can appear somewhere else on the battlefield again. Of course, this makes only sense, if there is water terrain on the board at all, an if it is placed somewhere with a strategical use.

And yet another idea: you coudl place a Maria captain beneath him, to produce a heroic move or march, if the watcher will need one.

I hope, this helps in your project.

And a last idea, it just came into my mind: Earlier than the watcher model GW did produce a set of his tentacles only (six tin tentacles). They play a role in the scenario at the gate of Moria in the first book (the Fellowship). Theoretically these could be used in a tournament game too, instead of the watcher model. They are more mobile than the watcher, but it has to be checked with the tournament organisator, wether this will allowed at all. I don't know, if the tentacles have attached an official points value.

Thank you for your answer, werennor!

You are definitely correct that the watcher walks so slow (to be accurate, 4") that without a captain it can get stuck. So, if i summon watcher early, i am definitely going to need a captain. Other option might be to summon the watcher late in the game, which would keep enemy on toes.

I like the idea of giving spear goblins a shield, as this would make them considerably more survivable, but still very cheap army. On the other hand, the figures have 2h spears, so i am not 100% sure whether shields would aesthetically work well, and would it need a lot of proxy? Goblins have better spears than mordor orcs though (who have very random and heavy looking weapons) so it might look ok aesthetically!

Also you are probably right that the bows would be quite useless, and maybe just keep a few around the drum or something.

About the 6 separate tentacles, i guess they wouldn't be allowed in general, but could be fun to test them as well. Sure, the big insect-like tentacle monster makes a good collectible and a good centerpiece, but separate tentacles would open a lot new strategics.

Ok, so, i think one problem with the list is that itts mass is not that high for a goblin army, and drum version lacks punch to hit through elite enemy infrantry. Watcher essentially means that the goblin army is just 500 points, and drum reduces army to a bit over 400 points. If enemy has let's say an ironhills army, s3 goblins simply wont be able to do ANYTHING, and d6 watcher is too vulnerable and dain slaughters him in 2 turn. So that makes me think thst the army needs a way tocounter heroes - f6 a6 watcher is excellent troop killer, not so good against powerful heroes. And therefore i tried once more make a new army list. What do you think wouldn't this list both counter enemy heroes and also wield enough mass and a banner to give troops enough survivability (though sadly not shields for spears) so army wouldn't break too early? One problem with this list is though that there is not much might to do heroic marches, so enemy might be able to shoot too many out before they get in? Here is the list:

Angmar & Moria (698p, 46 units, 7 might):

*Buhrdur 110p
-5 orcs, shields 30p
-5 orcs, spears, 30p
-4 wild wargs 28p
-1 orc, banner, shield 31p
*Barrow-wight 50p
-5 orcs, shields 30p
-5 orcs, spears 30p
-2 wild wargs 14p
*Durburz 70p
-8 goblins, shields 40p
-7 goblins, spears 35p
*Watcher in the water 200p 698

Take a listen to this podcast ... lots of talk about the Watcher in the Water here, including some advice on how to make the batswarm combination work:

https://soundcloud.com/the-green-dragon ... p-96-moria

Thx for the tip, i did listen 3 hours and 10 minutes of their podcast so far, to the section where they just end talking about the watcher. Maybe they have more tips later in the podcast, but so far it surprised me that they consider the watcher to be so overpowered. Like, where are the tournament winning lists with the watcher if it is so good? But maybe this is a positive sign! I will keep on listening to their podcast if they happen to have some more tips. But if the bat and watcher combo fails, then most enemy heroes will easily butcher the watcher who has only f6. And watcher is not tanky at all. D6 is very easy to wound. Please write more info here anyone, and opinions as well, is the Watcher op or borderline-useless?

I could imagine watcher could be good against something like isengard if they have max f5. But even then a lurtz or uglug with a heroic strike could ruin the plan. And goblins simply dont have things like barrow-wights who could paralyze or immobilize an enemy before the shooting phase, so which would give watcher confidence that the enemy is actually harmless to pull in.

The watcher is crazy good!
Plonk it behind your battle line and pull enemy troops in with the tentacles to thin out their battle line quickly or do the same with a hero (make sure you have a batswarm positioned correctly) amd watch the enemy hero die in 1-2 turns.
If your opponent doesn’t know this trick then you can easily kill all of their heroes 1 at a time, it’s honestly kind of broken.

TBH the watcher is amazing and almost OP if used correctly but it doesn’t fill the same roll as more traditional monsters.

It is also talked about on the “Into the West” podcast (I believe in episode 18).

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