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 Post subject: Thorin's Company tips (text rich)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:33 am 
Elven Elder
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At the request of ElfGeneral, and simply for further use I wanted to take the time to write up the great aspects of Thorin's company and a few other related characters from the Hobbit releases, and simply explain why you'd ever want to take them. Hopefully this will be beneficial to the whole community and especially new or returning players.

Please feel free to add in your own experience and expertise as multiple perspectives will yield far greater results than I alone could accomplish :)

****Please Note: All of this is obviously subjective in terms of rating these heroes and the fact most are incapable of leading troops has been reflected in the scores I have given each.

So without further ado:

Thorin Oakenshield
The leader of the company's value is pretty apparent at first glance. A hero with 3's in all the right places (ever sound a little like your pal describing that gal he's into?). He's a good defensive unit (D8 with the oaken shield), and some very useful specials that are far from limited in terms of their application. His wargear options allow for a wide range of roles that he can accomplish, and the fact that he is one of the few members of the company that can lead troops is a huge plus.
Value Rating: A+

Fili & Kili
As their stat lines are so similar I thought it appropriate to simply place them together.
Both are semi-useful, captain level heroes. Their specials are solid, but highly limited. They have obvious synergy with each other and their uncle Thorin, which boosts their worth a little, BUT their specials are situational in that they require specific conditions with specific models. Lowering IMO their value a bit. Both have solid ranged capabilities as well but not enough to "save them" in terms of their value rating.
Value Rating: D+

Bifur
One of my favorite units from Thorin's company. "Cheap as Chips" as I hear so often from my friends in the UK. His weapon's versatility, the fact he has an oft over-looked ranged attack and his battle-damaged special are all great for his points. Combine him with Oin or anyone else who can heal him once he's taken that one wound (which allows him to keep his activated special as he has previously met the requirements) to really take him to the next level.
Value Rating: B-

Bofur
Another very cheap hero that can add some needed might and punch to your army for again, cheaper than a captain. Effective against magic and strong enough when wounding, his limitations drop him below his battle damaged cousin.
Value Rating: C-

Bombur
The cheapest Dwarf yet, and yet one of the most useful support characters from the company. Bombur is the only Dwarf (apart from Thorin) of the company to have 3 wounds, which is nice because it means you're not relying on those 50/50 fate rolls to extend your life. Low fight and defense do hurt him a bit, but as that's not why you bring him its ok in the end. The fact he can boost your other models' will at no penalty to himself is a very nice stat to have, especially when partnered with Oin.
Value Rating: B-

Dwalin
The member of Thorin's company who is IMO typically the best choice to bring. He is very deadly, with a stat-line and specials that make him an offensive juggernaut against any enemy (no specialization that limits him, like "only against orcs etc) you'll find that with a careful hand he can make your problems just "go away" lol. He can lead normal troops as well, which is a plus. Even the dreaded Black-shield shaman cannot stop this tough Dwarf!
Value Rating: A+

Balin
Far weaker than his Durin's Folk profile, this incarnation of Balin is relegated to a support role, however he can still have a dramatic effect upon the outcome of the game, especially when coupled with Bombur. And again he can actually lead troops in-game.
Value Rating: B+

Oin
In terms of sculpts I love this one, but that's not what this is about. Oin is a limited combat hero, from his base stat-line to his weapon's special strikes this is quite evident. But as with so many others of the company that's not his role. Oin is a healer, the cheapest you can bring in the entire SBG game, and the only one who doesn't rely on his Will Points to do the healing. In addition the fact that he can, when need be, become in essence a banner is a big plus. Pair him with Bombur to keep your heroes ticking along and the re-rolls coming.
Value Rating: B

Gloin
Apart from Thorin, Gloin is the heaviest armored of the company, and rivals his son Gimli in terms of his killing punch. IMO a bit over-costed and as such his value is hurt a bit, but a very solid combat hero none the less.
Value Rating: B-

Ori
The weakest of all the Dwarves in the company, from a pure stat-line approach, this Dwarf is the choice of penny-pinchers everywhere. His trusty slingshot is solid enough at range and with a special that can turn the little strap of leather into a deadly weapon, you're opponent will soon learn that this David should not be underestimated. However his greatest strength is, once again, as a support unit as his Chronicler ability is quite useful, if somewhat limited in terms of the availability of its use.
Value Rating: C+

Dori
The Dwarf from the company I've personally seen bashed the most, Dori may just get the "Most Surprising" award for being far better in combat than expected. The cheapest 3 attack hero from the company (and one of if not the cheapest in the whole SBG), Dori certainly has his uses in combat. Especially when you take a look at his weapon's special strikes. However his Special Rule is very very specific in how and when it can be used which limits his potential just a bit.
Value Rating: C+

Nori
Personally I refer to him as the "baby Dwalin" in terms of his stat-line. Nori is a solid combat hero with some good special rules to make him an effective mid level hero when it comes to killing stuff. Beyond that he's a bit limited in terms of survivability and all, especially when considering his combat oriented profile.
Value Rating: C

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 Post subject: Re: Thorin's Company tips (text rich)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 1:06 pm 
Craftsman
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I disagree with you about Fili and Kili rating the worst. Their ranged capabilities (something rare among the company) and their solid statline make them useful heroes to take. Sure, some of their rules are redundant without the other models, but they've still got solid stats, and can do damage quite easily.

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 Post subject: Re: Thorin's Company tips (text rich)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:17 pm 
Kinsman
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Actually I do agree that Fili and Kili are the worst. I believe this review is comparing Thorin's company with the rest of the game, not just against the rest of the company. In that case, you are paying a lot of points just for a mediocre combat hero who cant lead troops. I would rather take other options for those points such as a Shieldbearer for just a few more points. Overall, Fili and Kili do not serve an army as much as the other dwarves do
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 Post subject: Re: Thorin's Company tips (text rich)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:18 pm 
Elven Elder
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legion wrote:
Actually I do agree that Fili and Kili are the worst. I believe this review is comparing Thorin's company with the rest of the game, not just against the rest of the company. In that case, you are paying a lot of points just for a mediocre combat hero who cant lead troops. I would rather take other options for those points such as a Shieldbearer for just a few more points. Overall, Fili and Kili do not serve an army as much as the other dwarves do


That's exactly what I was focused on. In terms of the company alone they definitely have their uses but in the game as a whole I think they're limited

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 Post subject: Re: Thorin's Company tips (text rich)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:41 pm 
Craftsman
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JamesR wrote:
That's exactly what I was focused on. In terms of the company alone they definitely have their uses but in the game as a whole I think they're limited


Yeah kind of a shame given how good they could have been and Kili's (maybe Fili's) importance in the film because of his interactions with Tauriel.

There abilities are just to limited, if they were to have bodyguard for anyone (from a lore perspective just say they are loyal to people they respect not just Thorin) that would be a start. As for their synergy rule perhaps give them +1A each if they are in the same combat together that would be powerful, widely applicable but also balanced.
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 Post subject: Re: Thorin's Company tips (text rich)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:40 am 
Kinsman
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like it, but some things aren't rated to well:
fili and kili, they have F5, boddyguard and a other weapon, compare them to bofur, would you rather have him than this F5 ranged hero with bodyguard of a resisting weaker guy for 5 points less.
gloin: terrible for his points, I've seen him but he is just so expensive but only has 2/1/1, where other 'big' dwarf hero's are bether, compare that to gimli, dwalin or old balin (D-axe), they are all so mutch better and between 85 and 95 points.
Dori, in my oppinion this is one of the best heroes of the compangy, a 3 attack F5 hero for 55 points. That's just so strong. and definitly worth if you think of gloin for 30 points more. -and the special rule doesn't limmit him, it's just not a great rule.

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 Post subject: Re: Thorin's Company tips (text rich)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:47 pm 
Elven Elder
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All very good points -Bolg- hence a reason I like forums, discussion.
I personally would choose Bofur over Fili and Kili, I think his "deny the witch" type special is very useful against so many evil models, while Fili & Kili can only Bodyguard Thorin, which stinks IMO, I'd rather they just have Bodyguard.

You're also correct on Gloin, he only earns that high of marks from me due to his "poison", defense, and the potential nastiness of combing his reroll with piercing strike.

Dori is a great hero, one of my favorites. When I said his special is limited I simply mean that it is near useless and as such doesn't improve his value

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 Post subject: Re: Thorin's Company tips (text rich)
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 1:25 am 
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First of all I would like to say that you all make excellent points regarding the Heroes of Thorin’s company. I do feel, however, that Fili and Kili are being underappreciated. Individually, the outlook put forward is perfectly correct, they are both mediocre heroes whose points could be better spent elsewhere. Together though, they form a unique fighting team that could really catch an opponent off guard. Their combat synergy special ability makes them one of the most difficult pairs of heroes to kill in the game. One of the brothers may indeed be out of both might and fate and be down to 1 wound, but unless you can charge them both simultaneously with units adequate to kill the weakened sibling, chances are that he will live to fight on, and your forces will suffer the full wrath of a healthy dwarf hero. Similarly, both brothers must be charged simultaneously in order to prevent either of them from being capable of using their ranged weapons that turn, as they use them in different phases. If one remains free when they move Fili will throw his axes in the move phase and Kili will be sure to follow up with an arrow from his quiver in the shoot phase and to make things worse, their enemy still faces whichever of the two is in better shape as mentioned previously. Fili and Kili are a fighting pair that GW has simply provided very high incentives to field together instead of listing them in one profile as the have in the past (referencing Elladan and Elrohir and Durin and Mardin). Now, weather the 110 points cost of the princely dwarf brothers is adequately low compared to the 140 for the twins with their higher movement, fight value, courage (though no longer an issue if Thorin’s included), might, will, and fate along with their twin elven blades and woodland creature special abilities; or to the 150 points cost for the dwarven best friends adorned with dwarf armor, an extra might, some special weaponry, the ability to shoot twice per round and ability to upgrade dwarf units is still a matter to question.

But lest we forget what, IMO, is the greatest thing about Fili and Kili; the real reason I would happily field either of the two; the reason that, were I to grade them as JamesR did I would give each and every one of them a full letter grade boost comparing them to the other heroes in the game; the reason that I think that, in particular, Thorin, Dwalin, and yes, even Gloin, are actually under-priced in regards to their point value. THEY CAN ALL BE MOUNTED! For 5 extra points they are the ONLY dwarf heroes that can gane the benefits of cavalry, and 3 of them have 3 attacks with a fight value of 6! This means that were a person to create some fantastic modified models depicting the entire company riding their ponies into battle, each of these characters (when charging) rolls 4 dice in combat, statistically giving him a 67% chance of rolling a 6. And if he does, there are few evil models barring monsters that can do anything but be knocked prone or demolished before the thundering hooves of ponies. Not only is this an incredibly potent force to be reckoned with, but it alleviates the dwarves of their maneuverability weakness as well. The only foot soldiers who can now mach their speed being Mauhur’s marauders. Plus, what’s more demeaning than having your fearsome warriors sent running for their lives from a group of short, bearded warriors riding to war astride their little ponies?
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 Post subject: Re: Thorin's Company tips (text rich)
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 5:04 am 
Elven Elder
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Swimnerd wrote:
THEY CAN ALL BE MOUNTED!


IMO the best point anyone has made in response to my original post lol. That is a very useful attribute, but does it really boost anyone's value that much? Other than Thorin, Dwalin, and Balin all the heroes are in essence "Independent Heroes" so when bringing them you're not really just paying X amount of points as in their profile, but their X plus a second hero (Y) to actually lead a warband. That's why IMO Fili and Kili are useless beyond an all hero force, they cost almost as much as a Dwarf Captain each, and even with their synergy they are less survivable then the aforementioned two captains.

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 Post subject: Re: Thorin's Company tips (text rich)
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 7:51 pm 
Wayfarer
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Swimnerd wrote:
Fili and Kili are useless beyond an all hero force
For the most part I agree. The only time I would include them in a force not of all heroes is under very specific circumstances. One tactical reason to take Fili and Kili in a force that is not consisting entirely of Thorin's company would be as a harassment and bating unit in an all dwarf army. On ponies they can remain out of charging range while using ranged weapons to pick off the enemy enough that you provoke them into sending a force to take care of the brothers. This would work best if you can make sure the brothers are quickly backed into an area of rough terrain due to mountainous/rocky features. Once the enemy is lured into the rough terrain have spring a group of dwarf rangers to eliminate the nearly immobile opponent. Now, I also grant that even in this situation there are better units that could serve the same purpose as Fili and Kili. I am a particular fan of dwarves however, so this would allow me to maintain an all dwarf army while still accessing units that don't suffer the maneuverability disadvantage (ponies) with uniquely powerful harassment capabilities (3+ accuracy with Strength 3 ranged weapons). In the past, the best option for harassment within the dwarven armies were the rangers themselves thanks to their better accuracy, but it's increasingly difficult to bate and ambush an opponent with the same type of units (nobody wants to follow dwarven rangers into rough terrain for obvious reasons). With a couple of heroes like Fili and Kili, not only will your enemy chase them into the rocky area (they will think that they are at an advantage as the ponies movement drops to 1/4 the original), but most opponents consider killing heroes to be a "feather in their cap" and as such will be more likely to make a wrong move if they think they can kill a couple heroes. All that said, this is a very specific scenario in which I would field them for very specific capabilities. 99% of the time, I am in full accordance with you, they are not worth fielding in a non hero army. It just goes to show that every mini can potentially have their moment.

Swimnerd wrote:
does it really boost anyone's value that much?
I think that being able to retain an all dwarf army with a strike team that overcomes the maneuverability disadvantage shared by the entirety of the rest of your army is certainly something. Additionally, I think giving these heroes with these great special rules (Oin's healing herbs and Balin's priority reroll) the maneuverability to stay out of the opponent's clutches without having to use other units as meat-shields to keep your rules in play is a big plus. And finally, in the case of Gloin, I think it justifies his seemingly high points cost. As you so rightly pointed out, his essentially poisoned weapons along with a piercing strike makes him an incredibly deadly foe once he wins a duel roll, adding to this an additional attack bringing him to a whopping 4 dice with a fight value of 6 makes him as close as you can get to an unbeatable foe. Plus, if by some miracle you survive his blows, his opponent is then knocked prone giving Gloin 8 attacks on his next wound attempt. Putting a fighter like that on a pony and giving him cavalry capabilities is like "a recon gyrene in an avatar body. That's a potent mix. Give me the goosebumps." (Col. Quaritch, James Cameron's Avatar)

But I really do think that your analysis of Thorin's company is excellent. I've been developing a strategy on the most effective way to use the 15 members as a whole regarding formation, movement, etc. I'd be very interested to get your opinions on it as it's still in developmental stages. As so many of the scenarios in the recent books entail using the company and only the company, I feel that it's essential that they bring their full potential to bare every battle, especially with the new rules regarding tying the scenarios together. Not to mention that if a person were to try to play a game depicting the battle of five armies from Tolkien's description in the book, the company must burst into the fray facing overwhelming odds (But where Jackson is going who can say as not even all of the dwarves are currently in Erebor and we are an action sequence away from Bard's decision to march to the mountain with the people of Laketown and Elves by his side).
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