Why do people think the charge command form aragorn was so stupid. IMO they were just trying to hold the choke point in the wall, rather than letting all the uruks come through.

Indeed, once the uruks had a foothold in Helmsdeep the courtyard would be overrun.
They could try to pin the uruks down with arrows, but their numbers where much to big.
And ( I think I said it before ) there was a dwarf lying in the water fully armoured, probably drowning, and between the uruk-hai.

The life of Aragorn's mortal friend Gimli is more important to him, than the immortal lives of the Elves.

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

I think people need to realise that film making from a book isn't about copying what's written on the page, because (a) it wouldn't fit, and (b) it would be dull and terrible. At this day in age people have come to accept what is taken out but there are reasons to understand why other stuff is put in also. The elves arriving at Helm's Deep was a way of showing that the fighting going on in the War of the Ring isn't just with our heroes as we see on screen, that it effects everybody. As to why the elves died and the Rohirrim survived (note also that very, very few of them did), it should be noted that the Elves spent hours more fighting that the Rohirrim did, in fact the Rohirrim didn't really hv to fight at all until the Deeping Wall was blown and the Elves dead. Also it wouldn't look very good on screen if the Elves just walked in and easily cleaned shop with an army being pushed as the biggest current threat to our heroes. Same thing goes for whether Aragorn made the right call or not to charge; it's a film and is about what looks good and is dramatic and gets a reaction; a load of elves just standing shooting Uruk-hai is dull.

Regarding Erkenbrand, I think they made a good decision leaving him out. His character in itself is not vital to the story but rather what he does. On the other hand, Eomer is a less significance for most of the book until he is getting set to become king. It is a lot better on film to set the character up early on to be vital to the story.

I say all this as both a film-maker and a lifelong Tolkein fan. It's hard to stomach these things at first but when you hear an explanation it's much easier to accept.

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"Do not be naive enough to think a small group cannot change the world; indeed it is the only thing that ever has"

I do agree that from the film-making aspect the situation, as you have expressed it, is much better. The best thing that they did, though, was keeping Arwen out of it- someone apparently had the brilliant idea of having Arwen lead them instead of Haldir. Thankfully they didn't do that...

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"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”

Agreed. I understand that they wanted to remind people that her and Aragorn are meant to be in love and have a tragic story, but it would have been a mess. Why didn't she go on the ships? When the battle is over is she just going to leave Aragorn again after coming all this way? Will she now just be slotted into all his scenes in Return of the King? Was definitely better not having her in it.

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"Do not be naive enough to think a small group cannot change the world; indeed it is the only thing that ever has"

@Valamir: Indeed, that would sap the strength away from Eowyn as a warrior.
Her role in the fellowship of the ring was to "powerful" by attacking the ring wraiths.

@GodlessM: She didn't go to the ships until the third movie, and then she turned around.
But it would have been strange indeed.
I can imagine, Aragorn in love, constantly keeping an eye on Arwen if she is okay.

There are reasons, and reasons can be poorly thought out, or well thought out. PJ made brilliant visual choices, but he made terrible storytelling choices. I'd say he 97% nailed the Frodo/Sam/Gollum story, but the rest was a hodgepodge of arbitrary changes that did nothing to further the tale or make it more clear. Adding Elves to Helms Deep to show the war was affecting others? Why not show that instead? Instead of Elrond and Galadriel wondering if they should help, how about showing them lamenting that they can't because their troops are already busy? Same elves, same armour, and a bunch of orcs in the woods...easy to shoot, the sets alrady exist, doesn't change the story, and gives the audience the wider perspective you want.

@Whafrog- Actually, IMO, Jackson completely bombed the Frodo/Sam/Gollum story, by making Frodo the consumate wimp, Faramir almost nothing of a noble lord, and thankfully leaving Sam as a decent character, but the storyline still had issues.

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"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”

We must have watched a different movie. He struggled repeatedly, but buckled down and came through, except at the very end. It wasn't much different in the book.



That was the 3% that bugged me.

@imrail; I know she did. My point was that if she had gone to Helm's Deep these were the sorts of questions that would be brought up.

@whafrog; changes in transcription aren't always about making the story clearer, they are about making it more suited for film, and when you have no appendix to read certain changes can allow you to bring in areas that otherwise wouldn't be possible. As for your suggestion, do you think either Elrond or Galadriel would be standing around having a chat while their home was under attack? It also wouldn't have linked at all to the stories were following and would have been a completely random off-topic scene that was out of place; much worse than what they ended up doing. The elves at Helm's Deep, while odd and untrue, had the right effect; they showed us the dept of the war, they gave us the impression of hope for the Rohirrim, and they sold the Uruk-hai as the destructive force they were when it turns out even with the Elves they would smash their way through relatively easy. Sure they didn't need to do it, but it had the desired effect, and PH did acknowledge that Tolkein may have turned in his grave. One thing about it though; they should'nt have killed Haldir as part of the change.

@Valamir; Faramir was changed to put an obstacle on front of Frodo and Sam that they otherwise didn't have since Shelob was being held back until RoTK. Otherwise they quite literally would have been harmlessly walking for the film.

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"Do not be naive enough to think a small group cannot change the world; indeed it is the only thing that ever has"

Have to disagree. Your argument seems a bit circular: decisions were made to achieve a certain effect, therefore they were the best decisions? I think they could have achieved the intended effects differently.



Bit of an overstatement, there were plenty of obstacles. There was also plenty of tension in the book about whether Faramir was going to let them go...all of which could have been translated to the screen without sacrificing Faramir's character and giving him daddy issues.

Giving credit where credit is due, the scene at the bridge where Frodo nearly kills Sam was extremely effective. This is not in the book, but works within the characters and the nature of the Ring. There are other dramatic scenes almost as effective that aren't directly in the book, I just don't think Elves at Helm's Deep or Ents wimping out or Faramir being weak are included in the successful inventions.

I disagree, although he seems mean at the start, he really comes around in the end. It's all character building according to PJ. I also thought it was really noble of him to go on that suicide attack, even though that wasn't in the book. He is still noble, just in a different way in the film.

Ah yes, by the end Faramir comes around. But in the book, he starts that way. And ends that way. And while there was some tension in the book about Faramir letting them go, it was nowhere near as much as the, "Yes, I shall take the ring to Gondor, I'll fulfill Boromir's desire, use the Ring to save Gondor!" In the book it was, "Though Minas Tirith be in flames and I the only one who could save it through use of the Ring, still I would not take it up. I would not take it if it lay by the side of the road."

Not direct quotes, of course, but it gets the point across.

I still think that Frodo could have, at the very least, been better done without looking as wide-eyed and scared most of the way to Mordor.

As a random note, this discussion now seems to have almost nothing to do with elves or fighting...

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"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”

Hardly, considering I never once said it was the best decision, only that they made that decision for a solid reason and it worked out for them. Sure they could have done it another way, but the fact is they all would have deviated from the book, so that point is moot. They did the one they felt was the most powerful, and it certainly was.

Think of it this way; we want to show the Elves fighting so we know this war effects them -> we can't deviate from our main plots however so this needs to involve our characters -> do we go with the Three Hunters line, the Ring line, of the Fangorn line? If they show up in Ithilien, they are too far from home and have seemingly no reason to be there. Again, if they show up at Isengard, sure they could be marching on Saruman himself, but with knowledge of Helm's Deep why would they do this? This leaves only one option.

I'd like to make clear as well that as a Tolkein fan, I'm exactly happy about their inclusion, only that I understand an can respect the decision to do it.



Like what? Once they were out of the marshes in the first 20mins of the film, nothing off kilter happened to them until they bumped into the rangers. They would have just been walking until they reached Minas Morgul. As a note, eating raw rabbits does not count as an obstacle. It added a very large obstacle that really put the quest on the edge of failure, something that wasn't expressed half as powerful in the book, not to mention the exact events of the book would have been rather dull on screen.

Also as Sticky Fingersss said, it was also about building Faramir's character. Much like Eomer, he was a pivotal character in the RoTK, but was essentially undeveloped and bland until the point where he became important. The depth that can be dealt with in thousands of words needs a little more presense in picture.

I guess however we'll have to agree to disagree on these matters.

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"Do not be naive enough to think a small group cannot change the world; indeed it is the only thing that ever has"

Faramir was a decent character in the film Imo, but I wanted Shelob to eat Frodo.

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

Frodo was horrible. Not only was he a coward, in the book he actually tried to stab the WK with a Barrow blade, effectively meaning that Aragorn could have killed him at Weathertop if he had been successful, and was much weaker, yelling at Sam over nothing in the beginning of TT. Faramir was nothing like in the book. In the book, he was a noble man who could see through the deception of the Ring, knowing that he couldn't use it for good.

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"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

@Drauglin- Thank you! Well stated.

@Gothmog- Yes, Shelob eating Frodo would have been very lovely, but I'm afraid that would have but a bit of roadblock in the whole 'destroy-the-ring' thing.

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"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”

Nah, Sam would have gone on, after singlehandedly slaying Shelob, Shagrat, Gorbag, the entire Cirith Ungol garrison, the Watchers AND the Nazgul sent to investigate.

Ya, Sam is awesome.

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"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

Sam is pretty much the reason the Ring got to Mount Doom. After all, how often does Frodo fall over? (Must learn how to do a video capture to create a compilation of him falling and laying...)