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 Post subject: WotR GT Winning Armylist
PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:20 am 
Craftsman
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I thought someone might be interested. Last weekend was the first WotR UKGT I won it, here's my army:

1 Durburz
1 Druzhag
1 Gothmog

Common
4 Giant Spiders
4 Giant Spiders
4 Wild Wargs
5 Wild Wargs
1 Bat Swarm
1 Bat Swarm

Rare
6 Gundabad Blackshields
6 Gundabad Blackshields
6 Gundabad Blackshields
1 Moria Mumak (ally)

Fate: Tainted Palantir on Gothmog

Other than that, the other top spots were taken by 3 Mordors, 1 Harad and Grey Company/Elendil/Aragorn/Galadriel/Dain cheese combo.

After using the Overlord/Mumak combo I am disgusted at how utterly stupid and overpowered the FAQ makes the Overlord rule, which in the rules cannot be clearer that it requires Might in the formation itself. 3x3d6 move pretty much single handedly won 2 of my games. I did not take any command options because competitively they're quite useless.

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 Post subject: Re: WotR GT Winning Armylist
PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 11:52 pm 
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ya i totally agree about it being OP. WotR obviously has some imbalances (khamul cough cough) which i wish GW would open their blind eyes to...

how many pts was it? you list seems to be using alot of the under priced stuff (blackshields, gothmog, mumak....) so im not that surprised.
where there any decent lists (ones that didnt use lots of ringwraiths, or just underpriced stuff like the mumak) in the tourny?

one thing that im curious about is your commons. how would 1c of bats really help? im sure you would use them for flank charges but there pretty expensive just for that... also the giant spiders, I havent used them yet but what ive heard is that they are so fradgile that they get killed very quickly?
you said that the command options are useless, although a capt seems like he would be quite useful (at the doubles, resisting might, heroic actions), or was that because they would become duel targets and you only wanted heroes for the blackshields? im quite interested how you played this list as im a MM player my self (although i havent played WotR much... and i have a tourny tomorrow)

can you give us some of the other lists?

and a last note, how did tainted palantir work out for you?
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 Post subject: Re: WotR GT Winning Armylist
PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:23 pm 
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Since your tournament is meant to be today I guess it won't help (unless there's a big timezone change), I only just woke up.
Shadowswarm wrote:
how many pts was it? you list seems to be using alot of the under priced stuff (blackshields, gothmog, mumak....) so im not that surprised.
where there any decent lists (ones that didnt use lots of ringwraiths, or just underpriced stuff like the mumak) in the tourny?

It was 1 army 1500 points, therefore max 375 in allies (I used 360). Underpriced stuff is more point-efficient, so competitively a lot of players will take any advantage to win.
Yes, there was quite a few nicely themed forces, like 160 Galadhrim I had to play, all-cav Rohan Riders, one army had combined Battlehosts of Army of the Dead and the Return of the King. Pretty much everything was there. Then there were also armies like Mordor with 5 foot wraiths and mass Morannons with Gorgoroth Horde (in fact, I think i saw 3 Gorgoroth Hordes); another Mordor with 3 foot wraiths (or 2, not sure), 1 winged Nazgul, Mumak and lots of Morannons again. Another Mordor (which I played in the final game 5, both of us being on 4 wins at the time as the only 2 players) with Winged Nazgul Battlehost - 5 Wraiths (WK, Tainted, Dwimm, KoU, Betrayer), company of Morannons and Doom and Despair Fate. In the top 5, there happened to be I believe my Moria, 3 Mordors, 1 Harad and a Grey Company mega combo with Elendil/Aragorn/Dain/Galadriel (which frankly lost to 5 Wraiths on the way and drew against one of the scarry Mordors) - yeah I know that's 6 armies, but some were tied around 3rd place.

Note about the Grey Company and their Councellor rule with Dain and Galadriel - it was found by the other players (not the one using it) and rulled in our favour that you are only allowed to use 1 Councellor per turn, not both, because the rule states that model uses the rule at the start of priority phase - now technically, once the first roll has been made, it is no longer the beginning of the priority phase, therefore the second Councellor may not be used. The argument that 'in this case Heroic actions could not be done multiply' does not apply IMHO because it states specifically in Heroic Actions that you do as many as you want and roll-off and Councellor is not a Heroic Action. If GT rulling is the one you want to take, feel free, but no-one is forcing you because it's not official. (although they've made notes for design studio to look at).

Also I'll take this moment to say something about Radagast's Epic Tranquilty, because there is a way around it - it states that it is called at the start of the Charge Phase, so exactly same time as a Heroic Charge. Once you roll-off which action goes first, it is possible that a formation will able to charge before Epic Tranquility takes effect. (In case anyone was thinking the Tranquility was broken ;) ).

Shadowswarm wrote:
one thing that im curious about is your commons. how would 1c of bats really help? im sure you would use them for flank charges but there pretty expensive just for that... also the giant spiders, I havent used them yet but what ive heard is that they are so fradgile that they get killed very quickly?
you said that the command options are useless, although a capt seems like he would be quite useful (at the doubles, resisting might, heroic actions), or was that because they would become duel targets and you only wanted heroes for the blackshields? im quite interested how you played this list as im a MM player my self (although i havent played WotR much... and i have a tourny tomorrow)

1 Company Bats - they were not originally for flank charges, their purpose was for combo-play with Mumak and double Overlords: Bat Swarm gets Heroic Move behind enemy formation, then Mumak gets heroic into that formation (3x3d6), the formation has to flee towards the closest board edge and it happens that the Swarm is on their way. They get automatically destroyed. However, I happened to usually use other formations that were in better/safer positions to the bats, so they proved useful otherwise - when I had priority they would charge a Troll or a flying Nazgul, stopping it from countercharging my flank or forcing it to use Might (which Trolls don't have and Wraiths only have 1). Also, their Terror helped others sometimes because once formation failed, my other formations also had more attacks. Movement blocking/slowing down and forcing opponents to use one spell on them was also sometimes useful. Overall, the two single companies proved to be very useful throughout the tourney.

The Giant Spiders are the best cavalry in the game IMHO. They have D3, so what? Unless you're going against a formation of 24 archers, there's nothing to be afraid of. Note that they are not a front-charge cavalry like Morgul Knights could be, but when they attack the flank however, they have S5 with prowlers and 8 attacks per company. Now S5+Prowler eats Heavy Armour+shields (ignore shields for flanks) on 3+ and re-rolls 1s because of poison, so from 3 companies' 24 attacks you will usually get around 18 dead before your opponent gets to strike. Being on the flank, they'll get less attacks on you and usually they'll have the problem of also fighting to the front something else, so you're guaranteed to win combat just thanks to their flank attacks (and if your hero in the other formation called a Heroic Combat, that's usually the whole enemy formation gone). Against Khazad Guard on the flank they're killing on 4+. Against Orcs, Rohan warrior and anything else that's D3, flanks they kill on 2+ with re-rolls, so 3 companies will kill average of 23 models.
Oh and add to that that you ignore terrain, so it's easier for you to flank than with any other cavalry and even when charge through terrain and end your move inside it, you still get the bonuses while others don't (Pathfinder Master ignores all difficult terrain penalties) :)
For anti-archer screening purposes there's always the option of summoning some Broodlings.

Command options first of all weren't required for this army - 3 Epic Heroes, each goes into a formation of Blackshields to get At the Double, other formations move 10 or 12, so they will catch up a turn later. In addition, since Epic Strike works in Duels (which I believe it shouldn't, but I don't write the rules, so whatever), captains always get eaten first and with them around another company of men on average (winning by 8 = 4d3 autohits = 1 company dead), effectively having a Captain lose a duel means you just lost the combat (unless you had spiders on the flank ;) ). Drum might be useful, but I'd rather have 2 more companies.

The way I set up was from left:
Spiders / Wargs / Blackshields with Gothmog / Mumak (depending on terrain could be somewhere else. 2 Swarms close to the Mumak) / Blackshields with Durburz (for Heroic on 1 Bat Swarm) / Blackshields with Druzhag / Wargs / Spiders.
That meant I just barely fit on the board, having formations of 1 / 1/ 3/ M / 3 / 3 / 1 / 1 companies wide. From that, the only strategy you can do is move forward really because there's barely any space for maneuvering. Mumak was often moved first with Gothomg's Overlord, unless I felt it would be disadvantageous.

We rolled for set up and scenario from the rulebook each time, so shieldwalls I played only twice. Once was Take the Pass, where 1 Blackshields had to stay behind the others. I also played Maelstrom of Battle twice, so you just have to improvise with that (btw, it was ruled that Might cannot be used for set up in this one).

Shadowswarm wrote:
can you give us some of the other lists?

and a last note, how did tainted palantir work out for you?

The lists are in one of the previous replies. Palantir was excellent - ever since my Mordor playing days I always believed it was the best Fate (because I can't stress how important it is to be able to choose whether you're first or second in a turn, and usually 2nd is better), but for this Moria army I seemed to not have enough points to take it untill I dropped another formation. The +1 to your roll means that you win priority 64% of the time, that's almost twice as often as your opponent. And how many times have you wished to move 2nd to be able to dispell Pall of Night from your main formation with Druzhag while your opponent smartly chose to go 2nd? How many times have you run out of Might and wished you moved first for cavalry charging purposes but your opponent saw it and chose to go first himself? And how many times you wished you move 2nd to set up a perfect flank charge, while moving first wouldn't let you? Priority is the most important role of the turn, so why not give yourself a bonus to it? :)

I'm glad someone asked questions, I really wanna help the WotR community get bigger, the game is good and we need more fans of it :)

BlackMist

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 Post subject: Re: WotR GT Winning Armylist
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 8:30 am 
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well my tournament was great today, although i didnt win (well much of my army isnt painted, so i cant get alot of points) I did do really well (apart from 1 battle) and even won something in a luck draw (for the 3rd time in a row :D). Ill post about it and things i learned and things that are imba...

I really like your army, i would just switch out the mumak for a stone giant so its less imba and more thematic (and i might see if i can squeeze a cave troll in there).

I also want to help the WotR community grow larger, although I think that quite a few player will be put off by some of the big imbalances in the game (mumaks, ES in duels, nazgul..). I just wish GW would open their eyes to them and admit that they messed up in the rules...
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 Post subject: Re: WotR GT Winning Armylist
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 10:05 am 
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Shadowswarm wrote:
well my tournament was great today, although i didnt win (well much of my army isnt painted, so i cant get alot of points) I did do really well (apart from 1 battle) and even won something in a luck draw (for the 3rd time in a row :D). Ill post about it and things i learned and things that are imba...

I really like your army, i would just switch out the mumak for a stone giant so its less imba and more thematic (and i might see if i can squeeze a cave troll in there).

I also want to help the LOTR community to grow larger, although I think that quite a few player will be put off by some of the big imbalances in the game (mumaks, ES in duels, nazgul..). I just wish GW would open their eyes to them and admit that they messed up in the rules...
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 Post subject: Re: WotR GT Winning Armylist
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 10:10 am 
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Shadowswarm wrote:
well my tournament was great today, although i didnt win (well much of my army isnt painted, so i cant get alot of points) I did do really well (apart from 1 battle) and even won something in a luck draw (for the 3rd time in a row :D). Ill post about it and things i learned and things that are imba...

Well done.

Shadowswarm wrote:
I really like your army, i would just switch out the mumak for a stone giant so its less imba and more thematic (and i might see if i can squeeze a cave troll in there).

I can understand why you would take a Giant, but I disagree. I played with a Giant before, but he stops working the moment opponent shows you 3+ Nazgul. Pall of Night is a problem (although you can dispell that if you move 2nd), but a bigger problem is Strength from Corruption (I know it works on Mumak too and kills him at the same rate, but Mumak's Heroic Overlord has a greater range, meaning he will walk over at least one formation during the game and likely remove it). Of course you don't always play against mass Ringwraith armies but fact remains that a 5 Wraith/Gothmog/Morannons is probably the most competitive army in the game so at big tourneys you will have to play this or similar army at some point. I have my Giant, used it at a 26-player tournament before and worked really well except that we were only playing good vs evil and a maximum magic level of 7.

On the other hand, I don't see why would you take a Cave Troll? I find them really useless - with just D6, one company of S4 models (Morannons, Uruks, Blackshields, Dwarves and a lot more) returning attacks is often enough to take him out in combat while he is unlikely to cause 75 points of damage himself. If anyone is afraid of him getting to combat, they'll just take him out with a spell or use one turn of shooting from 2 companies - it doesn't take much to cause 2 hits on D6 and just Hard to Kill is not very survivable, especially if you have any Might.

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 Post subject: Re: WotR GT Winning Armylist
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:43 am 
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id take the giant caues the mumak is too OP, sure if it was a tourny and i was playing to win, but ive gotten fed up with all the imba stuff and just want to have fun (the whole point of starting wotr)
and i love cave trolls, sure they dont kill a whole lot, but they distract my opponents ALL the time, protect my flanks, and now they can call duels on capt with overlord.
also, most of the time when i play, we have a 5 lvls of magic limit and only 1 EH2K model (to stop ppl getting lots of nazguls, and stopping multi mumaks)
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 Post subject: Re: WotR GT Winning Armylist
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:02 pm 
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Shadowswarm wrote:
and i love cave trolls, sure they dont kill a whole lot, but they distract my opponents ALL the time, protect my flanks, and now they can call duels on capt with overlord.

No they can't. The GT official rulling (posted here: http://www.terrainguild.com/thelastalli ... 1&start=40 ) and the one that actually makes most sense is as follows: "This heroic action specifically states that it only effects a Hero whereas the other heroic actions effect heroes and formations. If the model using the Overlord special rule is not a Hero they would not gain any benefit from calling a Heroic Duel but would still use up a might point." Of course, you don't have to use it, but it makes a lot of sense because action is different to other heroics.

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 Post subject: Re: WotR GT Winning Armylist
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:29 pm 
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that does help and makes it far more balanced. (although thats far less motivation for me to get a stone giant, but they still seem great)
the original rules said that you could only use the OL might INSTEAD OF THEIR OWN, thus meaning a hero (not cave trolls). now that cave trolls can it seems that the troll should be able to call a duel cause it says that "if a hero declare a heroic move....", thus the troll is counted as a hero for that action, and for the duel it also says "if a hero declares a heroic duel...." so it seems like the cave troll would once again be counted as a hero...
but anyway... can you give me a link to some of the GT's rules? cause id love to show this to the guys at my club (and at the GW that they often go to)
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 Post subject: Re: WotR GT Winning Armylist
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 2:43 pm 
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The things in that post on TLA I gave you a link to are what Events team emailed me back after asking them questions and what was then used at the tournament (although there was an amendment to the Mumak/Overlord rule - he does not move 9d6, instead he moves 3x 3d6 because Mumak's movement value is 3d6 and this is trebled). I'm planning to write a tournament review/report in the near future, but my dissertation deadline is on the 6th December, so that has priority over other things in life ;)

I know and agree with you entirely that original rules for Overlord could not be clearer on this - you may only use OL if you have access to Might yourself. The FAQ goes against the rules and it's one of the things I talked with GT organisers about and the design team will probably have a look at again. The logic behind disallowing Duel is that Troll doesn't count as hero and it doesn't say anywhere that he does, while Duel only affects the heroes (whereas other heroics affect the hero and formation, in this case allowing the Troll to use it).

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 Post subject: Re: WotR GT Winning Armylist
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 9:58 pm 
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Nice list Blackmist, I like the combo with the flyers and the Mumaks. Also, well done on the result.

That list of tournament answers is very useful, I will be using it as an event FAQ. Thanks for posting it up, my google skills have failed me a fair bit in terms of accessing recent versions of what big tournaments are doing.

This is a great game, and it looks like there was a really good variety of lists at the event. That in itself says something positive about the rules design.

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 Post subject: Re: WotR GT Winning Armylist
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:41 pm 
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Well!

And I thought it was only my gaming group that had 'cottoned on' to the 5 Ringwraiths/Gothmog combo - which I detest.

Blackmist, did anyone go for: Khamul, Dwimmerlaik, Betrayer, KoU, Shadowlord,; with Khamul and the Dwimmerlaik either side of Gothmog, who would be ready to call a counter-Duel/counter-Epic Strike for free anyone foolish enough to try to duel the two Wraiths?

Also, how did the 'Favourite Army' thing work? Did the 5 Wraith armies get penalised?

Stephen

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 Post subject: Re: WotR GT Winning Armylist
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:50 pm 
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Shadowswarm wrote:

"I also want to help the WotR community grow larger,"

Blackmist wrote:

"I really wanna help the WotR community get bigger, the game is good and we need more fans of it :)"


I third these sentiments. All I would add, as a hopeless Gondor player against an ever present 5 Wraith Mordor army is this: please GW don't over-react. The balance is very fine, about 55/45, IMHO. Without magic, as the game stands, Mordor would be useless. All Mordor needs is a very slight 'Nerf' - foot Wraiths at 125, rather than 100 pts. The Witch-King needs a 'Buff' and Khamul needs a serious re-examination - I never see the WK, I always play against Khamul. Command options also might need another look. A few other rules need some re-wording and I reckon GW will have got things right.

Then again, can anyone remember, ten years or so back, how imbalanced LoTR SBG was?

Stephen

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 Post subject: Re: WotR GT Winning Armylist
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:49 pm 
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BoromirofIpswitch wrote:
Blackmist, did anyone go for: Khamul, Dwimmerlaik, Betrayer, KoU, Shadowlord,; with Khamul and the Dwimmerlaik either side of Gothmog, who would be ready to call a counter-Duel/counter-Epic Strike for free anyone foolish enough to try to duel the two Wraiths?

Not sure if it was that particular combo of wraiths, but yes there was an army with 5 wraiths which finished in top 5 I think. Another had 3 foot, 1 Fell Beast and a Mumak (or 2 foot, not sure) and was I believe 2nd overall in points with 4 wins and 1 draw. I got lucky that I didn't play either of those, although having praticed almost exclusively against Mordor on 5 Wraiths and Gothmog in 3 months before GT, I reckon I was experienced enough to be able to put a good fight and possibly beat it.

There was no penalty for taking overpowered armies, there was only a point bonus for having armies other people liked, but it wasn't enough to make any difference on the top.

Ringwraiths are not 100 btw. I think they would be fine as they are if their Magic level dropped to 1 instead of 3. Then you'd be paying for the same thing as a Shaman with an extra rule and Epic Strike for 25 points which is reasonable. Now no other spellcaster in the game has level 3 below 160 points and you can't take those other level 3s as multiples, so that's a bit dodgy.

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 Post subject: Re: WotR GT Winning Armylist
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:36 pm 
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BoromirofIpswich wrote:
Shadowswarm wrote:

Then again, can anyone remember, ten years or so back, how imbalanced LoTR SBG was?

Stephen


No, I can't, actually. Any examples?
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 Post subject: Re: WotR GT Winning Armylist
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:30 pm 
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BlackMist wrote:
BoromirofIpswitch wrote:
Blackmist, did anyone go for: Khamul, Dwimmerlaik, Betrayer, KoU, Shadowlord,; with Khamul and the Dwimmerlaik either side of Gothmog, who would be ready to call a counter-Duel/counter-Epic Strike for free anyone foolish enough to try to duel the two Wraiths?

Not sure if it was that particular combo of wraiths, but yes there was an army with 5 wraiths which finished in top 5 I think. Another had 3 foot, 1 Fell Beast and a Mumak (or 2 foot, not sure) and was I believe 2nd overall in points with 4 wins and 1 draw. I got lucky that I didn't play either of those, although having praticed almost exclusively against Mordor on 5 Wraiths and Gothmog in 3 months before GT, I reckon I was experienced enough to be able to put a good fight and possibly beat it.

There was no penalty for taking overpowered armies, there was only a point bonus for having armies other people liked, but it wasn't enough to make any difference on the top.

Ringwraiths are not 100 btw. I think they would be fine as they are if their Magic level dropped to 1 instead of 3. Then you'd be paying for the same thing as a Shaman with an extra rule and Epic Strike for 25 points which is reasonable. Now no other spellcaster in the game has level 3 below 160 points and you can't take those other level 3s as multiples, so that's a bit dodgy.

I think that even at mastery one, the three 'training wheels' Wraiths will still be too good for 125pts. They need their special rules looked at as well IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: WotR GT Winning Armylist
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:54 pm 
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well mastery 1 wraiths is a bit silly, the are still nazgul. I'd rework the rules. drop them to mastery 2, and make them a bit more expensive.
I think that the spells should be reworked a bit, or at least mix them are around cause the spells of darkness are soooooooooo good, while good heros dont have anything as good as spells of darkness. like you should be able to put call winds on urself just to help block pall of night if you have to go first....

khamul, 160pts, mastery 2,
his special rule: blocks hits on a 6+ (blocking on a 5+ is still REALLY good)
im still unsure of what pts is suitable, and im wondering i nerfed his rule too much

hmmm, i was just thinking, what if you gave khamul the witch-kings rule and made it so it ppl in a radius around im, not behind.... and then rethink the witch-king cause he is pretty silly currently
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 Post subject: Re: WotR GT Winning Armylist
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:21 pm 
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Hithero,

When 'Fellowship of the Ring' came out in 2001 didn't Sauron cost nigh on 500 points, and the Balrog even more? It was a few years ago but, IIRC, you couldn't field the Balrog in a standard 500 point game.

They never ever did the cost of the hobbits right either.

In the early days it was good to play Good. Now ....

Stephen

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 Post subject: Re: WotR GT Winning Armylist
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:38 pm 
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Blackmist,

I read the rules again last night, and I was confused about your use of the 'Overlord' rule of Durbruz. In the rules it says it only applies to 'Misty Mountain' forces, so how come you could use it for the Mumakil?

Secondly, you stated:
"Note about the Grey Company and their Councellor rule with Dain and Galadriel - it was found by the other players (not the one using it) and rulled in our favour that you are only allowed to use 1 Councellor per turn, not both, because the rule states that model uses the rule at the start of priority phase - now technically, once the first roll has been made, it is no longer the beginning of the priority phase, therefore the second Councellor may not be used."

Not so sure. The rules state that you choose to expend the points at the start of the priority phase. What is to stop both Counsellors choosing to expend the points at the same time? However, if that is what they ruled, and it is their tournament, sobeit.

Stephen

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 Post subject: Re: WotR GT Winning Armylist
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:50 pm 
Craftsman
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BoromirofIpswitch wrote:
I read the rules again last night, and I was confused about your use of the 'Overlord' rule of Durbruz. In the rules it says it only applies to 'Misty Mountain' forces, so how come you could use it for the Mumakil?

I didn't. I used Gothmog's Overlord on the Mumak and Durburz's on Misty Mountains formations.

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