Who is the eldest?

BaruKhazad · **Joined:** Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:56 pm **Posts:** 249

Who is the eldest of these fellows? they all claim to be the eldest or at least that they're old. Of course we know that the Ilúvatar/Eru is the eldest. But who is the eldest of these?

Tom bombadil

Quote:

'Who are you,Master' he asked. 'Eh, what?' said Tom sitting up, and his eyes glinting in the gloom. 'Don't you know my name yet? That's the only answer. Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless? But you are young and I am old. Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here begore the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves of the Barrow-wights. WHen the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the Dark Lord came from Outside.'

Quote:

But i had forgotten Bombadil, if indeed this is still the same that walked the woods and hills long ago, and even then wa older than the old. That was not then his name. Iarwain Ben-adar we called him, oldest and fatherless.

Quote:

Could that power be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First; and then Night will come

Treebeard/Fangorn

Quote:

'Ah, now you are asking much,' said Gandalf.'the little I know of his long slow story would make a tale for which we have no time now. Treebeard is Fangorn, the guardian of the forest; he is the oldest of the Ents, the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this Middle-earth

Nameless things

Quote:

Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron know them not, They are older than he

.

Mouth of Sauron

Quote:

But it is told that he was a renegade, who came of the race of those that are named Black Númenoreans; for they established their dwellings in Middle earth during the years of Sauron's domination, and they worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge. And he entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again, and because of his cunning he grew even higher in the Lord's flavour; and he learned great sorcery, and knew much of the mind of Sauron; and he was more cruel than any orc.

Gorbag and Shagrat

Quote:

'We'll see. But anyway, if it does go well, there should be a lot more room. What d'you say? - if we get a chance, you and me'll slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there's good loot nice and handy and no big bosses.' 'Ah!' said Shagrat. 'Like old times'

Phantom_Lord · **Posted:** Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:44 pm

well, i think you're quotes answer the question. fangorn is the oldest walking thing, bombadil is the oldest thing that frolics. :wink:

BaruKhazad · **Joined:** Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:56 pm **Posts:** 249

so tom bombadil doesn't walk?

and what about the nameless things? they're older than sauron(or melkor, depends on who the dark lord is). so they're older than a maia or vala?

there's so much to debate about:3

Baruk Khazâd · **Posted:** Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:59 pm

I do not think that the nameless things are older than vala or maia.

The most of them are probably maia.

But i think Tom Bombadil or Fangorn are the oldest.

lorderkenbrand · **Posted:** Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:07 pm

It's either Tom or Treebeard, the nameless things were probably creations of Melkor seeing as they are older than Sauron. Treebeard spans right back, Tom Bombadil is said to be before rivers and trees so therefore is eldest IMO

Adanedhel · **Posted:** Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:29 pm

for now I have:

Tom Bombadil is not a child from Illuvatar in regulary sense neither an adopted (no elf, men or dwarf) and most I think would agree on Tom beiing either Maia or Vala

since they all existed before the world, this rules out Gorbag and Shagrat (mutated elves), Treebeard (created by Yavanna), Mouth of Sauron (renegade Numenorean and so a man)

The nameless things I guess were creatures Eru putted directly into the world when it wsa created (a guess though), or things created by the Valar without knozing of the Maia, in every case, as a Maia or Vala Tom must be older

So I'd put my vote on old Bombadil

Eaothen-the-brave · **Posted:** Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:19 pm

Tom Bombadil or Treebeard!

read this:
Gandalf calls Tom Bombadil the eldest being in existence; this is also evidenced by his Sindarin name Iarwain Ben-adar (Eldest and Fatherless). Dwarves called him Forn (Scandinavian, meaning "Ancient" or "Belonging to the distant past"), Men Orald (compare to German: uralt, very old). All these names apparently mean "Eldest." Treebeard also calls himself the eldest living being of Middle-earth and says that he was there before anyone else. However, Tolkien remarked in another context: "Treebeard is a character in my story, not me; and though he has a great memory and some earthy wisdom, he is not one of the Wise, and there is quite a lot he does not know or understand."

and now this poem by Tom^^ enjoy^^

Now let the song begin! Let us sing together
Of sun, stars, moon and mist, rain and cloudy weather,
Light on the budding leaf, dew on the feather,
Wind on the open hill, bells on the heather,
Reeds by the shady pool, lilies on the water:
Old Tom Bombadil and the River-daughter!

Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow;
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
green were his girdle and his breeches all of leather;
he wore in his tall hat a swan-wing feather.
He lived up under Hill, where the Withywindle
ran from a grassy well down into the dingle.

Hey! Come merry dol! derry dol! My darling!
Light goes the weather-wind and the feathered starling.
Down along under Hill, shining in the sunlight,
Waiting on the doorstep for the cold starlight,
There my pretty lady is, River-woman's daughter,
Slender as the willow-wand, clearer than the water.
Old Tom Bombadil water-lilies bringing
Comes hopping home again. Can you hear him singing?

Hey! Come merry dol! derry dol! and merry-o,
Goldberry, Goldberry, merry yellow berry-o!
Poor old Willow-man, you tuck your roots away!
Tom's in a hurry now. Evening will follow day.
Tom's going home home again water-lilies bringing.
Hey! come derry dol! Can you hear me singing?

Hop along, my little friends, up the Withywindle!
Tom's going on ahead candles for to kindle.
Down west sinks the Sun: soon you will be groping.
When the night-shadows fall, then the door will open,
Out of the window-panes light will twinkle yellow.
Fear no alder black! Heed no hoary willow!
Fear neither root nor bough! Tom goes on before you.
Hey now! merry dol! We'll be waiting for you!

tirno.alyanorno · **Posted:** Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:59 pm

Tom Bombadil is essentially the living incarnation of nature, so he is the oldest.

DurinsBane · **Posted:** Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:09 am

Totally agree with the 'direct' above. Tolkien saw Tom as Nature itself, or more like a sprite.
The quote says it all, before the raindrops, before the first trees, so for me that cancels out all of the rest.

Jamros · **Posted:** Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:00 am

It must be Tom Bombadil. Treebeard is mentioned as the oldest living thing, but Tom is the oldest thing period. I actually think that Shagrat and Gorbag and The Mouth of Sauron shouldn't even be in this pole.

BaruKhazad · **Joined:** Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:56 pm **Posts:** 249

Jamros wrote:

I actually think that Shagrat and Gorbag and The Mouth of Sauron shouldn't even be in this pole.

i've put them in the poll cause my original intention was to make a thread about ages. and well, the mouth of sauron is a human which has a great age and so have to orcs(if they can remember a time without sauron).
But finally i changed it into a poll-thing. so now you now why they're there.

And my guess about the eldest, i'm not that sure about who is the eldest. Cause before i concluded who is the eldest, i need to know what kind of "specie" they are. if they're maia or vala, they're oldest, but if they're not what are they?
i still dont know what/who tom bombadil is, i've read about him a lot(cause its quit interesting) but i didnt find a final answer because tolkien didnt want to say what he was:3.
and the nameless thing, i just find that line in the whole book but i dont know what they are.

Amarthadan · **Posted:** Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:24 pm

I do not agree with some of the above statements. I never thought of Tom Bombadil as a maia or vala. I think Tom is something competely different, like soms said, the incarnation of nature.

But yeah definately Tom.

I forgot, but was there any mention of him in the silmarillion? Cause it's strange for him not to appear in the "ancient" stories.

Adanedhel · **Posted:** Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:07 am

Amarthadan wrote:

But yeah definately Tom.

I forgot, but was there any mention of him in the silmarillion? Cause it's strange for him not to appear in the "ancient" stories.

Not strange at all, don't forget Tom only resided in the old forest, and the Silmarrilion for mostpart takes place in Beleriand :wink:

Anduril Blade of Kings · **Posted:** Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:27 am

I agree, has to be Tom.

bilbbo_bagains · **Posted:** Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:25 am

looks like it is tom them, fangorn far behind, Gorbag and Shagrat???

Who is the eldest of these?
Tom Bombadil

82% [ 19 ]
Fangorn
17% [ 4 ]
The nameless things
0% [ 0 ]
The mouth of Sauron
0% [ 0 ]
Gorbag and Shagrat
0% [ 0 ]
Total Votes : 23

Nurin · **Posted:** Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:00 pm

Everyone knows that Gorbag and Shakrat are the oldest, duh. I mean, sure, Tom came before the Flor and Fauna of the world, but Saruman created the Uruk-Hai, and since Saruman is a rather old guy, those gotta be the eldest!

..... or not?

Who is the eldest?

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