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1500 pts Host of Isengard
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Author:  Telchar [ Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:53 pm ]
Post subject:  1500 pts Host of Isengard
I thought i'd throw out my Isengard list for C&C.

Two things: - I WILL NOT TAKE KHAMUL OR ANY RINGWRAITH :)
- I strongly disapprove of Druzhag.

That said, here goes:

Heroes: Saruman of Many Colours (=the White Hand) - 240
Uglùk (Lurtz) - 175

Common: Uruk Warband-6 coy, shields - 210
Uruk Phalanx-5 coy - 175
Uruk Warband-3 coy, crossbows - 105
Uruk Scout Warband-2 coy, shields - 70

Rare: Uruk Berserkers - 110
Isengard Troll Captain - 150
Feral Uruks (Converted from shieldless Scouts) - 3 coy
Dunlending Horsemen-3 coy - 60 coy

Allies: Warg Riders -3 coy - 60

Total: 1495 pts, 8 Formations, 28 companies, 7 might

The idea is like this: The Uruk Warband with Saruman go for the enemies biggest unit, cast Exsiccate, Dark Fury, Bolt of Fire, and Kill, Kill, Kill. The Phalanx, with Lurtz, advance as well, covering for the Troll and either of the Cavalry Units. The Scouts go by the other flank, covering the other cavalry and the Berserkers, the Ferals ambush, and the Crossbows act as point-and-click death.

Any advice, both on tactics and on the list, would be much appreciated.
Author:  Hilbert [ Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1500 pts Host of Isengard
You have more rare formations than common... You can split the Uruk warband into to two three companies formation... 8)
Author:  daersalon [ Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1500 pts Host of Isengard
Saruman buried in a large defence 7 uruk warband is a good 'platform', to fling spells from. Remember that "Blessing of the Valar" is good to regenerate dead uruks if you need to. For example. I have once or twice had a wavering unit of beserkers down to less than 50% models, and epic moved saruman in.. cast that spell, and theya e abck to full strength. Just dont get caught out of course...

if you dislike Druzhag consider the (ok expensive) Shaman in tandem with saruman. That 1 ruin spell could handily shatter shields before saruman flings his destruction

6 companies of phalanx is a large single formation and unwieldy... they are better i think in 2 smaller 3 coy formations so cavalry are less likely to avoid them and they can cause more problems to cavalry units, theya re easier to destroy in 2 smaller lots, but their 'threat' to cavalry outweighs that I think. i.e. more manouverable, and can be on different sides of the battlefield with more anti cavalry coverage

Lurtz is expensive for what he does... but if you are being strictly thematic Isengard is pretty stuffed for Epic Choices.

You have a LOT of companies and few heroes... some like that idea, but some captains and banners help mobility (at the double) and charging, as well as recovering from disorder. Not every formation needs a captain, but i would lose a few companies and get some captains for might, for example. a captain in the crossbows, so they can move at the double and shoot with heroic shot. I know some people hate that idea, but as they can't move and shoot and burns a might point its a perfectly good balance.
Author:  daersalon [ Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1500 pts Host of Isengard
Also... lurtz is 175 points, and why take warg riders as allies, they already are in the Isengard faction?
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1500 pts Host of Isengard
daersalon wrote:
why take warg riders as allies, they already are in the Isengard faction?


Because they are common in Mordor and rare in Isenngard
Author:  Xelee [ Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 1500 pts Host of Isengard
Hi Telchar,

I like the thinking overall (particularly like you eschewing the 'training wheels' lol) but I think you might be better off with a little conversion work to rework the troops slightly. I think that Ferals and warband with shields would both be better as units of four (possibly even three for the shields) and that things like Scouts and Pikes seem likely candidates for some converting.

Having a larger number of smaller units will enable you to arrange them to give Saruman a base to cast his spells without being open to a charge -> ES Duel.

I think that one unit that would get a lot out of a Captain is that unit of crossbow. Speaking of Captains, you haven't got Thrydan in there - I thought he was a mandatory choice for Isengard lists? :P
Author:  Hilbert [ Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 1500 pts Host of Isengard
Oh yeah I forgot that :oops:
Warg riders would help a lot if used right 8)
Author:  Telchar [ Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1500 pts Host of Isengard
wow, that's a lot of feedback.

@ daersalon: The Blessing of the Valar on uruk Berserkers seems like a good idea, thanks for that. Not too keen on the Shaman though, he's so not themed (IMNHO, only the Valar, Ringwraiths and strongest Elves should have magic, no matter how overcosted), and cost 100 points, which I'd rather spend on troops and/or Lurtz.
I put the Phalanx in 6 coy because in my last (and only) game, the 3 coy's I took were the only "key" formation that even suffered more than half a coy of deaths (they were killed to an uruk by 4 coys of Haradrim without bows, but with Suladan and plenty of time). I thought making a bloody big squad would counter this, and make them more survivable. I agree Lurtz is very expensive, but he has 4 might (which means he has some left after heroic move/shooting my Crossbowmen into position). I thought of putting a Captain into the Crossbows in the place of either a coy of Phalanx or a Coy of Ferals (who to choose?), but that makes either formation quite fragile, so I'm not sure.

@ Xelee, the "training wheels" are not only extremely, sickeningly unthematic (a goblin casting fireballs and summoning warriors form nowhere like a master Istari? Or a Nazgûl, with as task to seek the Ring, fighting alongside the very person who wants to stop them from getting it?), but they also feel too much like cheating. Same goes, though less, for Thrydan. I might take him when I upgrade to 2000 pts, and get even more pressed for might then I am, but no yet. I plan to avoid Epic Strike Duels by making him bounce away from the ES hero (need to practice that though, lost him in the previously mentioned game).

@ Hilbert. What is using Warg Riders right? I honestly don't know, they got spattered by some Haradrim Archers.

Any comment on the tactics?
Author:  Xelee [ Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1500 pts Host of Isengard
Quote:
Any comment on the tactics?

See comments on list. I think you'll be wanting some more durability, redundancy and flexibility.

Same goes for your cav. It can work well if you get it where you want before it gets shot up (reasonably historical, I guess) and that means you'll want to work them together with other units so that they can help box in/pin targets and screen the cav.

FWIW, while I'm often the first to make fun of certain hero choices, I think the complaints about Thrydan are overblown. Sure he's a good deal for 50pts but that's about all I'd say for him.
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1500 pts Host of Isengard
Concernig Warg Riders.

Haradrim archers are good and you'd expect them to do well. Keep your cavalry behing your heavy infantry and declare flank charges on ant formation that charghes the infantry in front of them.
Author:  daersalon [ Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1500 pts Host of Isengard
I agree with Xelee re: Thryden. You are taking at least in the original list, some Dunlendings so he is internally thematic. Also as in any faction, some things are overpriced some underpriced. Thryden isn't that bad, a MIght 2 hero for 50 points, come on, take advantage of some of the 'breaks' granted the faction, and compensates for the pricey Lurtz.
Author:  Telchar [ Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1500 pts Host of Isengard
@ Xelee. So, if i get you right, you'd split the big Uruk formation, and then have Saruman jump between them to cast spells from a safe place, and use some infantry unit to screen the cavalry. Am I correct?

@ all. Regarding Thrydan, I'm convinced, but what to swap him for? a coy of Pikemen, a coy of Ferals or switch the Troll captain to a normal troll? Or I could ditch the Wargs and bring the Pikemen up to six coy again... decisions, decisions

@ Gothmog. How do I get the unit in the enemies flank without exposing them to 2 turns of bowfire (aka loss of half the formation). I can march them behind the Infantry screen, and then move them to the flank get shot (turn 1), probably loose a company, get pushed back, move up again, hopefully not loose a second company, and charge. I the dice are blessed I might miss the second shooting turn, but it'll still cost me 1/6-1/3 of my squad.
Author:  Xelee [ Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1500 pts Host of Isengard
Hi Telchar,

Yes, sort of, though I actually suggest that what might happen a lot of the time would look more like this: -_- where the top faces the enemy and is foot units providing a screen and gap for Saruman (possibly even in a unit of xbow, though I suggest they find defensible with good firing lines) to cast spells through. You certainly want to prevent charges on him, as 50% will succeed, and keeping out of 6" for black Dart would also be a good idea. In fact, I think a lot of your line could look like that - units of Uruks with shields with other units like the cav or troll working the gaps/flanks.

Were I you, I'd mix some figs (probably that base of Berserkers) into the warbands to beef up their numbers a bit and that suddenly frees up points for Thrydan without really losing anything from the army. I'd suggest that in the long run those Pike are going to seem like vulnerable (often die twice as fast as the guys with shields) but expensive models with the annoying habit of snapping their pikes.
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1500 pts Host of Isengard
Telchar wrote:
@ Gothmog. How do I get the unit in the enemies flank without exposing them to 2 turns of bowfire (aka loss of half the formation). I can march them behind the Infantry screen, and then move them to the flank get shot (turn 1), probably loose a company, get pushed back, move up again, hopefully not loose a second company, and charge. I the dice are blessed I might miss the second shooting turn, but it'll still cost me 1/6-1/3 of my squad.


First that depends on where the enemy archers are placed, if they are at the flanks of the army, don't pull them out into the flanks until you are close enough to archers to avoid them if the archers aren't in terraign, charge them in the flank, (move 2nd when you have priority). In most cases, just keep them back and don't engage until the infantry clash. Please say if I'm not clear enough and you don't understand.
Author:  Telchar [ Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 1500 pts Host of Isengard
@ Xelee. What do you mean by
Quote:
where the top faces the enemy and is foot units providing a screen and gap for Saruman
The rest of your advice makes sense, however.

@ Gothmog, I understand. :)
Author:  Xelee [ Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 1500 pts Host of Isengard
Hi Telchar, I mean you get a V arrangement, with the two arms (ie the two tough units without the caster/cav etc in them) pointing toward the enemy.

That was the solution we came up with when the Elven player managed to duel out Saruman using only one of the charged-up Twins. Same applies for his Isengard force vs me. I can Epic Challenge all I want (as if Saruman ever fails the test that often anyway) and threaten to duel but I'm not getting at the Beige Wizard in any kind of hurry.
Author:  Telchar [ Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1500 pts Host of Isengard
So that would mean something like: Uruk Warband (3 coy, shields) Uruk Warband (3 coy, shields)
Uruk Phalanx (5 coy)
as my front line? Though I'd rather split the Phalanx than the Warband. But then, the Phalanx aren't "Tough" in any way, certainly not in 3 coys.

Wouldn't it be possible just to have two rather big units (i.e. Warband and Shields) just within Hero Jumping range, and if the big ES dueler goes near one, put Lurtz in that one and Saruman in the other.
That wouldn't involve too much opportunity for him to dictate my strategy (both have Heroes with plenty of might, and there will always be some formation for Saruman to ravage) and I can keep Saruman safe while keeping my big blocks of Uruks (which are, IME, not only unkillable, but Epic looking as well). Just making it up now, without any proof that it''ll work though.
Author:  Xelee [ Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1500 pts Host of Isengard
Hi Telchar, that will work everytime until the turn it doesn't. What MIGHT stop you is priority not going your way (and then back dart, transfix etc) or Epic Challenge actually working that turn or him failing a rally and so on. Some of these are marginal but I'd suggest that your opponent might be willing to maximise his chances by giving these things lots of opportunities to succeed. Still, the other player has to be that focused - he has to choose to do these things. He might just think he is going to weather Saruman's spells. I tried that for a while - never again lol

There are advantages in big blocks of Uruks. I've wiped 3 coy blocks with frontal Cav charges before so they have their risks too. I think 4s are ideal for an army like this, where you are never going to have enough to do the articulated Minas Tirith/Morranan def 7 swarm and just need the units to be tough. Just remember that big blocks play into the hands of the Ringwratihs. The Pike... I see the Pike being eventually phased out. :)

One last thing, I think that if your are going to pay those points for Lurtz, you might as well use him aggressively rather than having him 'mark' other duelers and hope he makes the 50/50 roll to duel first. Doubling around and a heroic action at the right point could really disrupt your opponent's planning.
Author:  Telchar [ Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 1500 pts Host of Isengard
Hm, I see. I'll use the Phalanx (in 2 3 coy formations) as speed bumps/Sarumans bodyguards then, as I really want that big block. The only opponent I know at the moment doesn't have any Ringwraiths (just Suladan, lots of Haradrim Archers and Raiders, a few Haradrim Warriors and 2 Mumaks), so I'll cross that bridge when I get there :) . Thet point is, in my last game, the opponent was getting so nervous about that big, unkillable block of warriors rolling towards him, he never really even tried to do something against it (allowing Saruman+Crossbow to pick off enough coys to win the game).

Well, eventually, I might put in some Isengard Orcs (shields or THW?) in instead of the pike, but that won't be till after I've built an opposing force. (themed Mordor, Harad, Dwarves or Elves). I get the point about Lurtz, that was part of what I was planning to do (play them both agressively, Lurtz where he can get hurt, because he can take it, Saruman somewhere safe)
Author:  Xelee [ Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 1500 pts Host of Isengard
Awesome stuff. :)

I hope there will be pics and batreps of your exploits!
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