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Gothmog - master of battle
http://wwww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=21749		 Page 1 of 9
Author:  D0Cdeath [ Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Gothmog - master of battle
Ok so aragorn calls out khumul in an epic duel ,gothmog calls the same action for free , he also wins the roll off to see which takes place first. However aragorn then proceeds to kill him, can aragorn then continue to duel khumual?. I think i read something about only one epic of the same type being call in one go.
Author:  Hilbert [ Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog - master of battle
Yes of course he can... 8)
Author:  ForgottenLore [ Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog - master of battle
Gothmogs ability is more than a little vague on when exactly the actions caused by it happen. My group has assumed, that, since you don't start calling actions until AFTER the dice off, and Gothmog can't copy an action until the enemy hero actual calls it, that Gothmog's action gets inserted into the Queue immediately after the action he is copying. So in the example you give above, there is no roll off (unless mroe actions are involved), Aragorn calls Epic Duel, Gothmog says he is copying it and calls the same action. Then Aragorn's action resolves (since it was called first) then Gothmog's action resolves.

That is the only way I see to play it, since otherwise you end up having to roll off for action priority in the middle of resolving actions, possibly several times if Gothmog is copying multiple actions (although this thread on Warseer http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthrea ... ost5812838 has called into question for me whether that is possible)
Author:  BoromirofIpswich [ Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog - master of battle
Forgottenlore,
This is how my group play it as well, but it begs the question, what happens when Gothmog duels Aragorn? To both roll two dice and choose the highest or does Aragorn only get one? To my way of thinking Aragorn's Epic Action is a once only thing, so when Gothmog copies it, it is he that uses the two dice and Aragorn one only.

Of course, I may be wrong ...

Stephen
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog - master of battle
Much the same as FL says. Locally we say that that Gothmog can't copy something he doesn't see. So the Action he is copying resolves first and then his copy of it does immediately after. This isn't FAQ'd or official anywhere but I don't think most players would object to it as long as you clarify before the game. Anyone using Nazgul / Gothmog is already holding a mess of cheeze in their army and shouldn't whine about this. :P
Author:  ForgottenLore [ Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog - master of battle
BoromirofIpswich wrote:
Forgottenlore,
This is how my group play it as well, but it begs the question, what happens when Gothmog duels Aragorn? To both roll two dice and choose the highest or does Aragorn only get one? To my way of thinking Aragorn's Epic Action is a once only thing, so when Gothmog copies it, it is he that uses the two dice and Aragorn one only.


My understanding is that they are separate actions and each gets resolved in turn.

Aragorn calls an Epic Duel vs gothmog
Gothmog copies the action, calling his own epic duel.
Aragorn's action resolves, the 2 heroes fight a duel with Aragorn rolling 2 dice and choosing the highest
If both heroes survive, then Gothmog's action resolves and the 2 heroes fight another duel, this time with Gothmog rolling 2 dice.

It seems somewhat counter intuitive and not in keeping with the spirit of the rules, but by RAW that is what I think happens, although I could also see a RAW argument that the FAQ prevents a hero from being involved in more than one duel per turn. If that is the case then Gothmog would have no reason to copy the duel as there is no way it could take effect.
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog - master of battle
My agree is with Hilbert, when the duel was callled, Gothmog can copy it, and then there is a roll-off. That's what we did in my lovcal GW every time this happens.
Author:  Jazlotus [ Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog - master of battle
But Doctor death!!!!! Why not just call out Gothmog and leave it at that! But it doesn't matter anyway when my Mummakul stamps on little Aragons head! Hahaha
Author:  Jazlotus [ Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog - master of battle
Seriously tho I agree with Hilbert, that makes sense
Author:  ForgottenLore [ Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog - master of battle
It makes sense to be dicing off 5-6 times a fight phase when Gothmog is copying everybody's actions?
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog - master of battle
rarely are more than one heroic action called in the same phase near enough for him to benefit, so that is not a problem.
Author:  ForgottenLore [ Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog - master of battle
Happens all the time, a 12" radius is huge.

Last night we had Heroic Duel (2 of them), Epic Duel, Heroic Fight, Epic Rampage and Epic Strike all called in the same fight. If Gothmog had been in that game you don't think he would have been copying all of those?

The one time I played against Gothmog I think he copied in the neighborhood of 20 actions in one game. Based on what you guys are saying you think each and every one of those should be rolled off to determine whether the original hero or Gothmog gets theirs off first.
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog - master of battle
Well generally, when Gothmog is right next to you, you don't bother using as many heroic/epic actions as you would normally. Don't blame the player, blame the peope who decided he will only be 110pts.
Author:  D0Cdeath [ Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog - master of battle
Yer forgottonlore is right which is why i asked the question in the first place. I played a few days ago called various heroic/epic actions which all cost me precious might , gothmog then called them for free won the roll off and killed my hero then continued to use the remaining actions I'd called , this cannot be right. And with all due respect gothmogthewerewolf your last comment really annoys me considering one of the main attributes of gondor is their great epic heroes !.
Author:  NotLegolasJustTipsy [ Thu Sep 29, 2011 11:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog - master of battle
Looking and reading the rules I really must agree with DOCdeath here. The rules say that Gothmog may "Copy" any action. So common sense tells me here that Aragon goes ahead and fights Kamual, once that fight is complete, then and only then does Gothmog copy said action. Otherwise how could Gothmog "copy" the action if it hasn't already taken place?
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Fri Sep 30, 2011 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog - master of battle
It does not say that Gothmog copies the action, the exact woring is:

Quote:
Whever an enemy Hero calls a Heroic or Epic action within 12", Gothmog may immediatly call an action of the same type without expending a Might point.


It saysthat he must call a heroic/epic action for free, and that he must call it immediatly afterwards, but it does not say that he copies it, therefore, a roll-off is required.
Author:  NotLegolasJustTipsy [ Fri Sep 30, 2011 4:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog - master of battle
Thankyou for the correction and you are quite right what you say, however can you please explain what the next statement means please? it says "Note that this rule does not allow Gothmog to duplicate other abilities triggered by might points". Can you give me an example of this for me, just to let you know I'm not being funny here i just want clarification as I'm finding that different people interpret the rules differently. Many thanx x
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Fri Sep 30, 2011 4:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog - master of battle
For example, if a player uses a Might point to increase a roll or us a Special Ability (something other than an Heroic / Epic action), Gothmog cannot do the same "for free".
Author:  ForgottenLore [ Fri Sep 30, 2011 4:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog - master of battle
GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:
It does not say that Gothmog copies the action, the exact woring is:

Saying "copied is just a short hand, because, well, that is what he is doing.

Quote:
It saysthat he must call a heroic/epic action for free, and that he must call it immediatly afterwards, but it does not say that he copies it, therefore, a roll-off is required.

Right, he is calling it immediately AFTER the enemy hero, therefore no roll-off is required.

Gothmog is incapable of calling the action until the enemy hero calls theirs, at which point the enemy hero's action has already been called and is in the queue.
Gothmog's ability can interrupt the sequence of events, but it can't go back and retroactively change something that has already happened. An enemy hero calls an action. That is done, the action has been called. Only once an enemy hero does that can Gothmog choose to use his special ability and if he does so then he calls the same action.

Remember, a dice roll-off determines the order in which actions are called, not the order in which they are resolved.

NotLegolasJustTipsy, that line refers to special abilities like counselor, mighty blow, crippling shot, baruk khazad and others that require a might point to activate, but aren't Epic Actions.
Author:  Jobu [ Fri Sep 30, 2011 5:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog - master of battle
I don't think his special rule states "afterwards", it says he may call one immediately, without having to use might. The call just has to come "afterwards", because, well he does not have ESP, it has to in order for the special to work.
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