The One Ring :: View topic - Charge responses

Hey,

I think the reason for Stand and Shoot not being in WotR as opposite to Warhammer or some other games is that you get to charge after the shooting phase. For example in fantasy charge happens at the start of the turn in the move phase (or at least it did in the 7th when I still played it), therefore the unit didn't have a chance to shoot, while in WotR it's after shooting, so you've already had that chance - effectively you're standing and shooting and disallowing yourself from charging. If you allowed charge reaction to stand and shoot then your formation would be shooting twice in 1 turn, clearly disallowed in the rules.

Countercharge would make any kind of tactics useless because cavalry would always be getting their bonuses, so you might aswell not bother moving with cavalry at all and always get the bonus...

And an evade move would work, but at the start I thought that the section about a formation fleeing was about fleeing from charge, yet it is only fleeing after being disordred in the move phase, which is a bit pointless usually.

Hi Scott,

There was actually quite a positive reaction to one of your suggestions - a flee or evade option. This would be one thing, present in many other rule-sets, that WOTR is missing. As long as it were not too permissive, it would be pretty cool.

Counter Charge is already handled by using Heroic Charge.

Stand and shoot, well you do that after movement and before charging.

Evade, you could move away in the move phase.

WOTR is already a complicated game so don't think it would benefit for anymore sequence interruptions and the rules sort of cover your suggestions anyway.

A countercharge from other rulesets I have played gives both sides the charge bonus simultaneously

Jscottbowman wrote:

A countercharge from other rulesets I have played gives both sides the charge bonus simultaneously

That's exactly why I said that any tactics then become futile. What is the point of moving with your cavalry back from a combat or setting yourself up for a perfect charge 9" away, if you always receive the charge bonus anyway? What would the point of even calling a heroic charge against a cavalry formation be if they got the bonus every time by countercharging? The game would then turn into just pushing trays forward onto each other and everybody would be playing all-cav because they would always have all their bonuses.

What is the point of moving with your cavalry back from a combat or setting yourself up for a perfect charge 9" away, if you always receive the charge bonus anyway?

Author:	jscottbowman [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:45 am ]
Post subject:	Charge responses
I've been playing a bit of Black Powder recently, and it got me wondering about charge responses in WOTR. By that I mean when unit charges against you, what do you elect to do. As it stands now, you take every charge at the Halt. But what about a 'Counter Charge', by cavalry or perhaps even flying monsters? This way lance armed units would still get their lance bonus, and perhaps you can give them their regular charge bonus too? I would restrict it such that if a cavalry unit makes an earth shaking charge and engages a second cavalry unit, this unit would caught at the halt, not having had the chance to ready the charge themselves. How about a 'Stand and Shoot' by missile armed troops? Only against a charge from a unit in the shooters front fire arc. This could be at a suitable penalty to hit, maybe -1, as its a somewhat 'unsteady' shot? How about an Evade. Once chargers is found to be in charge range, charged unit makes a full move away, and if escapes chargers range, recovers but is disordered? Thoughts??

Author:	BlackMist [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:15 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Charge responses
Hey, I think the reason for Stand and Shoot not being in WotR as opposite to Warhammer or some other games is that you get to charge after the shooting phase. For example in fantasy charge happens at the start of the turn in the move phase (or at least it did in the 7th when I still played it), therefore the unit didn't have a chance to shoot, while in WotR it's after shooting, so you've already had that chance - effectively you're standing and shooting and disallowing yourself from charging. If you allowed charge reaction to stand and shoot then your formation would be shooting twice in 1 turn, clearly disallowed in the rules. Countercharge would make any kind of tactics useless because cavalry would always be getting their bonuses, so you might aswell not bother moving with cavalry at all and always get the bonus... And an evade move would work, but at the start I thought that the section about a formation fleeing was about fleeing from charge, yet it is only fleeing after being disordred in the move phase, which is a bit pointless usually.

Author:	ForgottenLore [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:31 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Charge responses
It's an interesting idea. I think implementing something like that would have significant repercussions on how the game played, however. It isn't something that could just be dropped in and expected to work. Other rules would have to be taken into account, many point totals would need to be adjusted. I am also concerned that it would complicate the game. A big draw of WotR is that it is fairly simple and fast moving, that's why we can play with big armies in a reasonable time, and this might slow things down noticeably. That said, if you were to try something like this I think the "Evade" option should be done before the charge distance is rolled. Your not going to wait until the fast moving horses are right on top of you before you decide to get out of the way.

Author:	jscottbowman [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:57 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Charge responses
BlackMist wrote: Hey, I think the reason for Stand and Shoot not being in WotR as opposite to Warhammer or some other games is that you get to charge after the shooting phase. For example in fantasy charge happens at the start of the turn in the move phase (or at least it did in the 7th when I still played it), therefore the unit didn't have a chance to shoot, while in WotR it's after shooting, so you've already had that chance - effectively you're standing and shooting and disallowing yourself from charging. If you allowed charge reaction to stand and shoot then your formation would be shooting twice in 1 turn, clearly disallowed in the rules. Thats a fair point, and to be honest, receiving a round of elven shooting is bad enough without getting another on the charge... but I thought I would still offer this thought out of 'completeness' BlackMist wrote: Countercharge would make any kind of tactics useless because cavalry would always be getting their bonuses, so you might aswell not bother moving with cavalry at all and always get the bonus... Not sure if you are familiar with BP, but where a unit counter charges, you find the mid point between the opposing charging units, and thats where they line up, so the counter charging unit does have to move a bit. The reason I like this is that often i may advance my cavalry out into the battlefield, and then the enemy in his move, advances and charges in his turn catching mine at the Halt, where in 'reality' I imagine they would both have been moving towards each other, then with a rush they would both crash into each other, hence; charge with counter charge. At the moment, one set of cavalry is always caught with its pants down. It just doesnt feel right... BlackMist wrote: And an evade move would work, but at the start I thought that the section about a formation fleeing was about fleeing from charge, yet it is only fleeing after being disordred in the move phase, which is a bit pointless usually. I agree, it doesnt seem to do much here. I just thought Evading from a charge seemed the logical time to do it!

Author:	Beowulf03809 [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Charge responses
I think the way WotR goes back and forth on its phases, allowing each player to Move, then Shoot, then Charge and Fight helps address some of the issues of simulated simultaneous action. The concept of Priority and allowing the player with Priority to elect to be first or to respond to the other player, is such a core mechanic that something like what you describe (though very interesting) would significantly disrupt other areas of the game. I love games that have that sort of detail as well, but the entire game sequence needs to be built around that from the ground up I believe for it to work correctly. In games where you see Captains and other affordable Heroes being used you actually get more of this as well. You can move second so that you can respond to your opponent's moves, then when it comes time for the Charge phase you have a few Captains call Heroic Charge to get the jump on your enemy without burning critical Might from your more potent Epics. But in highly competitive play such "lesser" Heroes can become a liability more than anything else as your opponent targets them with Duels (potentially using Epic Strike) and can seriously damage the entire Formation as a result. But when we've played games around 1000 - 1500 points with a good spread of Epic Heroes as well as Captains (and Banners, etc.) you can really get a good variety of "counter charge" style results within the scope of the current rules.

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Author:	Xelee [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Charge responses
Hi Scott, I don't think that adding more things that interrupt the sequence is something that is needed with this game, given the variable initiative, heroic/epic actions, and ability to achieve things through multiple units. A flee from charge reaction for those tricky Eastern and Southern troops, not to mention goblins, might be pretty characterful though. One issue with it mechanic wise might be that WOTR tends to treat lines drawn through corners as 'front arc', which is a bit too much to be the trigger for a flee action, IMO. Something the being eligible to flee if the charge begins in the column one base-width wide extending from the front would be better, I think.

Author:	jscottbowman [ Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Charge responses
Guys, that's all fair enough, and I can agree it may take some major tweaks to change the rules and phase structures to do this. You are probably right the existing sequence makes enough sense. Perhaps it just depends on your perspective with these things. Scott

Author:	Xelee [ Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:04 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Charge responses
Hi Scott, There was actually quite a positive reaction to one of your suggestions - a flee or evade option. This would be one thing, present in many other rule-sets, that WOTR is missing. As long as it were not too permissive, it would be pretty cool.

Author:	Slythar [ Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Charge responses
When I first saw the Fallback values on the Quick Reference sheet I assumed there would a rule to move back during the charge phase. I was wrong of course but it does leave an interesting option.

Author:	jscottbowman [ Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:29 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Charge responses
Xelee wrote: Hi Scott, There was actually quite a positive reaction to one of your suggestions - a flee or evade option. This would be one thing, present in many other rule-sets, that WOTR is missing. As long as it were not too permissive, it would be pretty cool. A possible idea for a future edition then?

Author:	hithero [ Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:24 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Charge responses
Counter Charge is already handled by using Heroic Charge. Stand and shoot, well you do that after movement and before charging. Evade, you could move away in the move phase. WOTR is already a complicated game so don't think it would benefit for anymore sequence interuptions and the rules sort of cover your suggestions anyway.

Author:	jscottbowman [ Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Charge responses
hithero wrote: Counter Charge is already handled by using Heroic Charge. Not really, this just switches who get the charge bonus to the 'other' player. A countercharge from other rulesets I have played gives both sides the charge bonus simultaneously hithero wrote: Stand and shoot, well you do that after movement and before charging. Fair enough hithero wrote: Evade, you could move away in the move phase. True but its not quite the same as what I was thinking. hithero wrote: WOTR is already a complicated game so don't think it would benefit for anymore sequence interruptions and the rules sort of cover your suggestions anyway. Fair enough, Everyone is entitled to their opinion. regards Scott

Author:	BlackMist [ Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Charge responses
Jscottbowman wrote: A countercharge from other rulesets I have played gives both sides the charge bonus simultaneously That's exactly why I said that any tactics then become futile. What is the point of moving with your cavalry back from a combat or setting yourself up for a perfect charge 9" away, if you always receive the charge bonus anyway? What would the point of even calling a heroic charge against a cavalry formation be if they got the bonus every time by countercharging? The game would then turn into just pushing trays forward onto each other and everybody would be playing all-cav because they would always have all their bonuses.

Author:	jscottbowman [ Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Charge responses
BlackMist wrote: Jscottbowman wrote: A countercharge from other rulesets I have played gives both sides the charge bonus simultaneously That's exactly why I said that any tactics then become futile. What is the point of moving with your cavalry back from a combat or setting yourself up for a perfect charge 9" away, if you always receive the charge bonus anyway? What would the point of even calling a heroic charge against a cavalry formation be if they got the bonus every time by countercharging? The game would then turn into just pushing trays forward onto each other and everybody would be playing all-cav because they would always have all their bonuses. I see your point, I just know how it works in other rule sets, and that feels right somehow. I am also put in mind of the scene from TTT 'warg attack'; where the riders of rohan clearly charge and receive the charge of the warg riders... you have to admit BOTH sides are charging in this instant! I may try out my suggestion as a houserule in some home games and see how it works...

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Author:	BlackMist [ Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Charge responses
A thing I would suggest is to restrict the countercharge to something like: you can only call it if you are x" away from the formation that is charging you - this would represent that they have time to prepare a countercharge, otherwise you might aswell not bother moving at all and sit 1" in front of your opponent all the time.

Author:	Xelee [ Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Charge responses
Hithero, I think the other 'reactions' are well covered by things in the game but that evades aren't replicated at all by existing mechanics. Evades are something most rulesets have in there for certain classes of troops, which do not want to recieve charges but will (if the right conditions are met) flee. I don't really see any of the forces of the West using such tactics (save perhaps for Hobbits? Or Rangers in certain circumstances?) but given the heavily cariactured nature of the various forces, this should absolutely be in there for eg Khandish horse, or Haradrim missile troops, and perhaps others. I'd suggest that a reasonable way to handle it, if you were to trial is Scott, would be to only allow it if charged in a frontal corridor (as opposed to arc) for foot at least and to still have terror apply. If terrified, enemy troops should not be able to manage a successful disengage and be pinned. If the charge comes from outside that frontal corridor, extending forward from the base-width, then skirmishing foot should be caught. Given that cav bases are narrower and it is a little easier to get away for trained cav, maybe they could get to use their front arc.

Author:	Beowulf03809 [ Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Charge responses
Something like this would probably require a Captain or Epic Hero just as an At the Double. If someone were to try this house rule out I'd give it a risk as well. Like an At the Double there should be a courage test to Evade successfully. If you pass, then you can execute the Evade. If you fail, your formation is in shambles and you are disorganized the rest of the turn with all the penalties associated with that state.

Author:	Xelee [ Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Charge responses
The requirement for a captain seems reasonable, and it should be possible to fail. However, failure means you get charged and all of the units I think would make good candidates for such a rule are currently sub-optimal choices, for their points. I think that if you are Khandish cavalry and recieve a charge, you are already suffering enough!

Author:	ForgottenLore [ Sun May 01, 2011 12:14 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Charge responses
BlackMist wrote: What is the point of moving with your cavalry back from a combat or setting yourself up for a perfect charge 9" away, if you always receive the charge bonus anyway? It seems to me this problem could be alleviated a bit by only giving the countercharges part of their bonus, +3 or +4 for cavalry possibly. I also agree that a hero and a courage test sound like reasonable requirements, I do think that being disordered is a bit too harsh a penalty for failing. Possibly a reduced number of attacks as if you were hit in the flanks?

Author:	Xelee [ Sun May 01, 2011 12:36 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Charge responses
To be clear here, I don't think there should be a penalty for failing to evade. I think failure, given the units in question, is penalty enough. I don't think counter-charges need to be added to the game, given other mechanics already in there.