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Epic Challenge and Heroic Duel question
http://wwww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=20657		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Killerkatanas [ Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:04 am ]
Post subject:  Epic Challenge and Heroic Duel question
In a game yesterday, Saruman in a battlehost formation consisting of 4 companies of Uruk pikes with an army flag, faces Dain and his dwarves. Dain calls a Heroic Duel -- and according to the rules Saruman had to accept it? Saruman did not stand a chace, and in addition to being killed, lost six other uruks in the process.

I do not understand why I had to accept the challenge. Epic Challenge allows you to decline, but with a -3 penaly on courage, but he called a Heroic Duel, and I was not able to decline.

I am wondering if the rules are being misunderstood here? If this is true how the system works, then what is to stop a player with a high-fighting-valued hero from simply wandering around and dueling each lower-ability Epic hero they come across?

Brian
Author:  IM A ENT!!! [ Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Epic Challenge and Heroic Duel question
ok I also had a game just a couple of days agao with Saruman in 3 companies of orcs, my mate with dwarfs also was about to epic challange the formation.

I smiled at him and he knew what i was thinking.Saruman Has a courage of 6 so he was most definatley going to pass the challange even with the -3, also becasue of any might that i migth use to boost the dice rolls.so my mate didnt even bother calling it.


any way the rules say(im not sure if you have the WOTR book, but i do) that if the -3 test is passed then the challenge is ignored, However if the test is failed then no epic heros can leave that formation and and cannot move.

So if you past the test then nothing happends.But your right saruman has no chance agasint dwarf heros
Author:  Killerkatanas [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Epic Challenge and Heroic Duel question
Ok, that is fine, with an Epic Challenge I can at least say no to the challenge, but with a heroic Duel I cannot. That means many characters in the game are doomed by those with a higher fight level.

There should be some way of saying no to the challenge. It should not be automatic.

Brian
Author:  Slythar [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Epic Challenge and Heroic Duel question
The only way out of a Herioc Duel is to call a Herioc Fight if you win the roll-off and then not charge back after winning the fight.

You can't decline a Herioc Duel or accept an Epic Challenge. You follow the description and that's what happens.
Author:  ForgottenLore [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Epic Challenge and Heroic Duel question
Even if you call a heroic fight and charge back in the duel will still be avoided because the formations will be separated at the end of the second fight as well.

I think they intended that the 2nd fight of a heroic fight be fought during the normal course of the fight phase and not up front, but the rules for heroic fight very specifically say to immediately charge and fight again before proceeding with the phase, so the 2nd fight also happens before the duel and the formations will again be separated at the end of that fight so the duel would still be canceled.
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Epic Challenge and Heroic Duel question
Killerkatanas wrote:
I am wondering if the rules are being misunderstood here? If this is true how the system works, then what is to stop a player with a high-fighting-valued hero from simply wandering around and dueling each lower-ability Epic hero they come across?


That is actually a common tactic for some forces and is why you also see so much discussion of Epic Strike around here. Additionally, it's why you don't see many low level Epic Heroes or generic Captains in a lot of people's lists. The thought being that these serve more as a gateway for a high-Fight Hero to Duel your Formation to death than they actually help. :roll:
Author:  Slythar [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Epic Challenge and Heroic Duel question
ForgottenLore wrote:
Even if you call a heroic fight and charge back in the duel will still be avoided because the formations will be separated at the end of the second fight as well.


No. The FAQ answers this.

Q. If one side calls a Heroic Fight and the other calls a
Heroic Duel and the Heroic Fight wins the roll of and goes
first, is the Heroic Duel cancelled and the point of Might
spent wasted? (p66)
A. Yes, unless the side calling the Heroic Fight wins and
decides to charge back in again.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1440049a_FAQ_WaroftheRingv1_1.pdf
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Epic Challenge and Heroic Duel question
Awesome to see them clarify that you can avoid the Duel by winning the HF and NOT charging the same formation back.
Author:  ForgottenLore [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Epic Challenge and Heroic Duel question
Slythar wrote:
ForgottenLore wrote:
Even if you call a heroic fight and charge back in the duel will still be avoided because the formations will be separated at the end of the second fight as well.


No. The FAQ answers this.


Then do please explain to me how the duel is not canceled if you do charge back in?

Which part of the rulebook are we to ignore to make that happen?
Author:  WayUnderTheMountain [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Epic Challenge and Heroic Duel question
The second charge starts a second fight. And when you lose the roll-off, it just means your duel is delayed(not entirely cancelled) until after the Heroic Fight and the second fight is not a Heroic Fight. Think of it this way; in the first fight the Hero calling the duel couldn't fight his way through the enemies soldiers due to their 'heroic' fighting, but by the time the enemy charges again the enemy soldiers have started to tire out so the hero has a chance to fight his way through. I'm pretty sure that no part of the rulebook is actually ignored by this FAQ response.
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Epic Challenge and Heroic Duel question
Agreed. The second fight resolves as a normal fight, not at a special time like the Heroic Fight did. So the Duel, if you choose to charge back into the same Formation, can continue.

If you are worried about the Duel then just use this as an opportunity to break off after the first Fight, perhaps charging a different Formation.
Author:  ForgottenLore [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Epic Challenge and Heroic Duel question
Beowulf03809 wrote:
Agreed. The second fight resolves as a normal fight, not at a special time like the Heroic Fight did. So the Duel, if you choose to charge back into the same Formation, can continue.


I agree that I think that is what they intended, but the rules for Heroic Fight say

Quote:
can immediately charge and fight again before proceeding with the fight phase


if it was just "immediately charge and fight again" I could see an argument, but they went out of their way to specify that you are charging AND fighting a second time before proceeding with the phase.

Like I said, I think they intended the 2nd fight to occur in normal priority, and I would fully support such a house rule, but that isn't what the rules say to do.

I'm not trying to be difficult, I am a big believer in modifying the game rules to suit your groups needs, but I do believe that people need to know what RAW really is before they decide to start changing things.
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Epic Challenge and Heroic Duel question
Thanks for the quotes. I loved my old MoM SBG rule book because it was so small and light I kept it in my computer bag almost all the time for quick reference. No such option with the WotR rules. I may have to scan them to PDFs so I can turn to them easier.

In this case, if it wasn't for the FAQ entry, I think it would definitely be a situation that the Duel would be forfeit because both Fights are explicit as resolving "before proceeding with the Fight phase". That resolution would end with the two formations separated and Sadly the GW FAQ writers may not have read this closely and have passed down a ruling that we now live with, for official / tournament play at least.

I would have like to have seen it be both Fights take place before the normal phase, RAW, as there are already too few options for rank-and-file troops with a basic Captain to have a chance against a Duel-focused Formation. The ability to "force" two Fights on the opponent while robbing them of the Duel can be nice.

It's pretty important to decide which order you're going to play this out in though:

1. Formation A declares an Heroic Duel, Formation B Heroic Fight
2. Formations A&B fight the first time, B wins and recharges
3. Formations A&B fight the second time (results don't matter for this example)
4. Heroic Duel takes place before separating the two formations

-OR-

1. Formation A declares an Heroic Duel, Formation B Heroic Fight
2. Formations A&B fight the first time, B wins and recharges
3. Heroic Duel takes place
4. Formations A&B fight the second time (results don't matter for this example)

Does someone have the exact working of Heroic Duel available? Depending on how that is written could indicate which of those two options are most appropriate in the light of the FAQ ruling.
Author:  ForgottenLore [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Epic Challenge and Heroic Duel question
GW specifically says though that the FAQs are "soft material" and that they don't have the same level of authority as the rulebook. If the rulebook itself is vague and unclear then you check the FAQ but if the two are in blatant and completely unambiguous contradiction I think the rulebook retains priority. (partly because their answer takes a set of rules that work perfectly well with no real doubt and creates a situation where you can't play without breaking some rule.)

Wish Warseer wasn't down right now. I think contradictions like this have come up in GW's other games before and I would be interested in finding out whether the "GW community" had reached any kind of consensus.
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Epic Challenge and Heroic Duel question
I know GW's comment on "soft material" but for the couple official events I've attended ( GW presence/support for anything LotR in our region is about as rare as a pink troll) all stated that the latest FAQs were in effect.

That being said, if we do go by the FAQ where a follow-up charge from an Heroic Fight back into the same Formation that already called an Heroic Duel would still result in the Duel, which order in my example above would most of you play?
Author:  ForgottenLore [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Epic Challenge and Heroic Duel question
As I said above, I do think the intent of the rules is that the second fight take place in the normal sequence of the fight phase, so that would result in the duel happening between the 2 fights.

I still maintain, however, that an answer in a FAQ that directly contradicts the rules is not a valid answer, especially when it only creates additional confusion and ambiguity where none previously existed. No one would be questioning whether a 40K FAQ that said you could charge after shooting a heavy weapon was an actual change to how the rules work. They would recognize it as a typo or mistake of some sort and continue playing how the rules are written.
Author:  Slythar [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Epic Challenge and Heroic Duel question
I play the second. Its so specific its hard to argue. To me it says that the first part is the Herioc Fight and the second one is not.
Author:  HRM [ Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Epic Challenge and Heroic Duel question
ForgottenLore wrote:
GW specifically says though that the FAQs are "soft material" and that they don't have the same level of authority as the rulebook.


This is, quite frankly, a beyond-foolish approach for GW to take. Why bother write the damn thing if it doesn't override errors in the main rules?

GW needs to do a hard-and-fast, full-stop sequence of actions for the Heroic/Epic Actions, including what, specifically, trumps what.
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Epic Challenge and Heroic Duel question
<customer service rant> In the late 90's I was enjoying the Babylon 5 CCG by Precedence Publishing (I’m a big B5 fan and this game is the only CCG I will ever admit to having played for more than 5 minutes). I enjoyed it so much in fact that I became one of their official reps in the New England region. Along with the fanatic, uh, I mean friend, that got me into the game we were the two people that did demo events at local stores, ran small and large tournaments, set up tables at conventions, etc. That company was amazing for their support and efforts and has been the model I keep in mind ever since.

A CCG game is perhaps the hardest thing to keep balanced. Like GW’s products, you need to constantly be coming out with something new to keep sales going, and the only way people that have been involved for a long time will keep buying new stuff is if the new stuff is better, or at least different enough, from old stuff they already own. Likewise you don’t want to block entry to new players by having situations where those that have been collecting for a few years auto-win against new players. A lot of cards were enhancements that created combos and with a few years of product (several hundred cards) behind them, now and then something “broke” would come up…either something was just too powerful from the start or it could be used in a way not necessarily considered by the design team, or it combo’d in an unbalancing manner. And as you’re trying to encompass all rules for a card in just a couple sentences there were times where interpretation became an issue as well.

Precedence kept a very active forum going with both public and private (reps + design team) areas. Though the community at large was able to answer most questions from new players (much as we try to do here) there were times when something wasn’t as clear. If the reps couldn’t clarify it among themselves or if a designer was reading the messages already then an official answer would come out. Such answers rarely took more than a week to get and there was never a worry of how to ask or if the answer was going to come from someone that didn’t know the game or think things out. And if they made a mistake in a ruling, they would just post “sorry about that…please do this instead going forward”. Their FAQ was a simple web page on their site and it was a living document. I’d check it before any event and tried to check it for something new every couple weeks. Weeks…not months. And when something new was coming up Precedence engaged their reps to some degree for play testing and comment (mockup cards and early rules so the reps may turn up issues BEFORE production starts).

Today’s electronic world is light years beyond what we had 10+ years ago. There is no excuse beyond corporate culture for GW not being more immediate in their review of questions and complaints. Would it really be that hard for them to put an hour or two per week to browse the 2-3 major forums (here, warseer, TLA) for “hot topics”? Would it kill them to have a very open comments page on their own site to post questions and see public answers? Would it cause any issues for them to collect this information and update their FAQ with some regularity (it takes me about 2 minutes to export a PDF from Open Office and upload it to a server)?

The big difference is Precedence knew that the player community was their only reason any of them had jobs. The players were not simply parasites that latched onto their great bodies to feed off whatever they decided to drop. The engaged the community at all levels. They had a global community of “civilian” reps that they provided a little extra support to and trusted them to promote the hobby and manage events locally. And they listened to the questions from those reps and gave them answers that they could take back to the community.

GW can’t be everywhere. Brick and mortar stores are expensive and few and far between. Big events like Games Day seem to be fading in today’s economy but local events or smaller scale events among a larger convention are an area that could bring a lot of vitality to the hobby (and income to GW) if tapped better using local players designated and supported by the company. Better give and take on information sharing and questions would help eliminate frustration that can turn players off of a hobby. GW just seems to be stuck in a monolithic mentality and moving at glacial pace.
</customer service rant>
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Epic Challenge and Heroic Duel question
Ok...I need to cut down on the caffeine (yeah...like that's ever going to happen) and stop posting during frustrating conference calls. :E
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