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A couple of ideas for new Battlehosts
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Author:  Hashut's Blessing [ Mon Jun 14, 2010 6:46 pm ]
Post subject:  A couple of ideas for new Battlehosts
Personally, I was more than a little disheartened to see that the Dwarfs only got two possible Battlehosts and neither is all that appealing. The Host of Erebor has special rules that ONLY affect Balin, so when he's dead, the rules are moot (the Will or Iron thing is only on HIS rolls, but they cost Might, so he's using a meager Might store to try to protect half a dozen formations from magic and not using it elsewhere) and it reuires quite a few formations to be used. Secondly, Drar's Hunters has special rules, but the main one (again) is only effective if within 12" of Drar, but he can Ambush. So, use his special rule OR his Ambush, either way, forfeiting an option.

Neither seems that appealing, but some of the Fortunes look absolutely excellent and I love the thought of using a Battlehost anyhow. As such, I created a couple as vague ideas for more interesting Dwarfen Battlehosts, both of which ended up being Morian, but address the key concern of: there was no list for those that went to Moria... Anyhow, constructive criticism would be much appreciated. (Note: Some names should be changed. Particularly Baruk-Khazad! since it is a Fortune AND one of Gimli's special rules.... Damned repitition.)

Moria's Reclamation Corps 50pts + models
* Balin, Lord of Moria
* Floi Stonehand
* 0-1 Gimli, son of Gloin
* 2-6 Moria Expeditionaries (3+)
* 1-2 Khazad Guard Kinbands (3+)
* 0-2 Dwarf Warrior Kinbands (3+ and can't have shields)
* 0-2 Dwarf Ranger Kinbands
* 0-1 Iron Guard Kinbands (2+)
* 0-2 Vault Warden Kinbands
We know what dwells in the deep: Any formation that is within 12" of Floi Stonehand automatically passes any Terror test.
Baruk-Khazad!: The number of formations in this Battlehost divided by two (rounding up), may be gifted with Goblinbane weapons. Any formation that already has Goblinbane may re-roll ones to hit against Goblins.
Home to stay: Any formation in this Battlehost that is within 12" of an Epic Hero from this Battlehost when they lose a combat may add +1 to their die roll when testing for panic.

Morian Miners 25pts + models
* 1 King's Champion
* 2-6 Dwarf Warrior Kinbands (4+, may not use shields)
* 1-3 Vault Warden Kinbands (2+)
* 0-2 Dwarf Ballistas (1-2)
Miners, not warriors: Because the Dwarfs here are miners, they use great pick-axes (preferably modelled as such) and so ignore enemy shield bonuses in close combat. However, they are not warriors and have -1 Courage and no hand weapons.
Rouse the Militia: The King's Champion acts as a make-do general for the miners in case of needing to defend themselves. One formation from this Battlehost may add +2 Fight if within 6" of the King's Champion.

My thoughts are that I have included rather a lot of optionals in the first list and the second list may need to upgrade one of their rules slightly or add in another weak one.
Author:  Sacrilege83 [ Sat Jun 19, 2010 2:34 am ]
Post subject: 
I kind of regret picking up the book once I understood what it's all about. I could use two battle hosts of the ones shown for my Rohan army and that's all. The rest is all pretty pointless. I see now that this book was specifically made for the purpose to get people to spend their money on tons of models just for the sake of unlocking a few available rules.

Here's my own problem, since I'm mainly a collector that spreads my purchases between all forces of LOTR. But Battle Hosts demands you keep to a specific force because some hosts require that you have 24 Dol Amroth soldiers or pikemen, or 32 Clansmen of Lamedon, etc etc. All these being metal models which aren't exactly cheap. I like purchasing up to 9 models at most (3 blisters) where GW would like you to purchase 8+ blisters to create a host. This is my problem.

For others who do concentrate on a single force for gaming purposes would find only a few pages of this book valuable to them but the rest worthless because lets face it, unless you're rich and you have a lot of spare time on your hands to paint you can't afford making the hosts that are displayed in the rest of the book.

Anyways I'm done ranting, but I suggest to those who are collectors like myself and have more than one force, you should play friendly games and customize the battle hosts in the book to be smaller and come to an agreement with your friends so you can then use the book's special rules.
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Sun Jun 20, 2010 5:13 pm ]
Post subject: 
@Sacrilege83 - your points are taken and many of us may agree with some, but HB put in effort on his post and it would be good to stay on topic for him. If you want to discuss the actual worth of BH maybe start a dedicated thread?

Back on topic: I like your Militia and don't think you should modify it much, except I'd suggest taking out the option for ballista. For just 25 points I think your rules may be good. It probably shouldn't be upgraded much. I like the idea of remodeling some of the Dwarf warriors with mining equipment. 8)

As for your main list, I'm not sure about including Gimli. I know he's a zero-to-one and there is always a chance he might have gone with his cousin, but I'm just not sure. I'll have to give some thought to the other rules. 50% of your force getting Goblinbane while also having the other two special rules all for 50 points seems like it may be a little cheap. But your force composition looks good for a band of rugged Dwarves that have set off across the land to reclaim their home.
Author:  Hashut's Blessing [ Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
Beowulf03809: The Battlehosts are received in far better grace than I expected, thank you ^^ Much appreciated. Also, thank you for pointing out the complete lack of comment on this thread by the other poster.

In response to your comments, my only thought for the ballista was that they may be there as a permanent structure of defence, but did think that they would likely need to go and was fully prepared for them to, so they're gone ;) It feels like a Battlehost that fits the idea of the LoME Durin's Folk list, in that it doesn't have named Heroes and could be any group of Dwarfs (or, in this case, Dwarf miners).

I agree with Gimli. I wondered if he could represent another leader or perhaps went there on his way or stopped by at some point, but I agree that he can go :D With Goblinbane, I guess that it was because it is 5 points per company in the rules, but the Fortune is 100 points (working out to be 20 companies) and I thought it seemed fitting, but I agree that 50% is perhaps too much. I think that it is a necessary rule, but the number is what comes under issue the most. How about 25%? Or would two/three formations be more appropriate?

Thanks very much for the highly constructive comments :D I may try to make some BHs for other armies, so if you have any thoughts (of army AND theme), I'll give it a go :D
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:35 pm ]
Post subject: 
As a stand-in for the Goblin Bane rule, how about something like the following. It came to me this weekend watching the animated Hobbit with my 7-year old(kids are getting old enough to be introduced :D ):

Blades of the Goblin Wars - The Dawarves and Elves made a number of special weapons during the height of their wars with the Goblins. One Formation in your BattleHost may be equipped with these. That Formation will cause Terror to any Goblin Formation and can re-roll any '1' rolled to Wound. (if you want to try it a little tougher, maybe make the Terror at -1 but that could be overkill).

As for other BHs, I've been knocking around a few ideas myself. I just haven't had the time to sit down yet and try to work out points. I know people did a decent job of reverse engineering some SBG points to be able to make Heroes with reasonable point values based on Stats, M/W/F, some special rules, etc. The points in WotR seem at least as well regulated (though there is some arguments if they are all fair), and it seems like BH costs are pretty well structured as well. For example: "Courage within 12 inches of key hero" is a common option, and I'm sure it has a certain base cost to it. Do you have something as a guide already or are you best-guessing based on similar BH entries?
Author:  Hashut's Blessing [ Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
I quite like that rule :D It also doesn't interfere with the current Goblinbane rule to mean that you can't give the Moria Expeditionaries the bonus :D I wonder if it may need to be re-roll any failed wounds,w hich also seems overpowered, but Terror at -1 is too much and not too fitting (blades may be scary, but not THAT scary, right? ;) ).

Well, to be honest, I looked at the BHs and it's fairly simple. Each major rule is about 25 points and two minor rules are 25 points. Then it's a case of figuring which you think are minor and major, really. The 25 pt hosts tend not to have a major rule because they all have at least two and another thing to note is that three minor rules (maybe less strong than two minor rules, individually) seem to be worth 25 points too. So, a major rule and three minor rules is about 50 points.

Thanks again for the idea ;)

What themes are you thinking about?
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'm working on a Dol Guldur Battlehost. It uses Ghostly Legions and some other spirits as core troops (hey…he's not called the NECROMANCER for nothing 8) ), and a requires a host of basic Orc warriors and some Spiders ( of course ) as well. There are some other troop options in the 0-n format. I'm not trying to make a combat powerhouse, but at the same time the appendices for LotR gives references that even during the War of the Ring he was using Dol Guldur as a sort of forward base. He had built it up enough to attempt laying siege to Lothlorien from there…you don't do that from a dilapidated hovel with a rabble of orc. The Necromancer is an option in the BattleHost since it can represent the time he was hiding there or also during the War, but if he's not present then Khamul is needed.

For special rules, some of the things I'm trying to iron out include:
1. All Spiders gain the Ambush special rule.
2. If the Necromancer is included, some of the Spirit forces gain benefits.
3. Courage benefits for the Orcs (serving in a fortress of the dead, mastered by Nazgul or the Dark Lord himself, and surrounded by a forest teeming with Giant Spiders helps toughen you up a bit)
4. ?? I want to look thru the BH book again to see if there are some other ideas that seem to fit the theme.

There are also some custom Fates that I'm considering.

The other BattleHost I would like to do would be an Army of the White Council to represent the forces pulled together for the first major attack on Dol Guldur. It will be a bit Hero heavy (requiring either the White Council Legendary Formation or a number of Epic Heroes from that same group) and require a mix of Formations from all three Elf groups. I still have to give some thought to making it unique rather than just a clone of some other Elf BH :roll: . I like the way the Last March of the Ents obviously encourages a BH that fights Isengard (it's almost useless otherwise), for example.
Author:  Hashut's Blessing [ Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:43 pm ]
Post subject: 
Sounds good to me. My first bit of advice would be to try not to make it have too many options (so no more than 6 different types of formations, for example. Each formation must have n+ companies [usually] and such like. If you end up saying you can have 12 different 0-2 formations and must have 9 others compulsorarily, it gets to be too much ;) ).

Second is more an idea than anything else: maybe make it so that if they are within 12" of a Spirit model in the same Battlehost, they are Immune to Terror (for fear of something far worse happening ;) ). Orcs are still scared, just more scared of ghosts/failing their master/failing their master's master than they are of the enemy :D

Third is one that you suggested to me: ALL spiders having Ambush may be too powerful and I would imagines that spiders are an integral part of this force. Maybe have something like two formations of spiders may have Ambush or some other limit?

Fourth thought: If the spirits are within 12" of the Necromancer, they get count as having shields/get +1D or something? Their strength on this world is bolstered by his presence, after all :D

Lastly (on this BH), I'm not sure that another abilitiy is necessarily necessary, unless it is some kind of Elfbane weapon or something? The suggested rules that I have given would be 50-75 points, at a guess.

The second one sounds cool. I wonder if it may seem more fitting to have the characters be in Epic Hero form only and maybe something like each one can only stick to their kind (Thranduil leading wood elves, Celeborn leading Galadhrim and Elrond leading high elves, but they can enter ANY non-BH formation).

I will be honest, I have no knowledge of the events around the Necromancer, really, so my advice is purely on the rules and points side of things ;) Although! Would the Dol Guldur one not need some Castellans, maybe? Either they have to be included or become rare instead?
Author:  Dark Lord [ Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:12 am ]
Post subject: 
what about making the castelleans an upgrade to a unit that gives them +1 fight, or courage or something? but can't go into legendary formations, tht would be overpowered :rofl:
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:46 pm ]
Post subject: 
First...don't panic. I wasn't planning on more than 2-3 special rules. I can see how my post may have been misleading, but I wasn't meaning to imply all those would be in effect. :? However, I want to think about all themed options and then decide which ones are best. So I may throw around 5-8 before settling on 2-3.

Regarding the Ambush, the Thranduil's Halls Battle Host turns all Formations into Ambushers for woodlands, so it's not unprecedented. And one of three types of Spiders are already ambushers, most armies won't have more than one or two Spider Queens, so really it's only granting to Giant Spiders. As these are metal-only models a lot of armies may only have a few Companies worth (the BH requires at least one Formation of 3-Companies). So in reality it's probably not giving "too much". Having played the TH BH with my Wood Elves I'll say that even with all having the Ambush option, and a LOT of woodlands on the table, I generally only consider Ambushing one Formation as the rest of the force is needed immediately.

Having played a number of Evil spirits I don't think I'd want to give Defense bonus to them. They are already decent Defense and boosting it would be a bit of overkill. I think just making the Spirits core members of the list without having to do 25% allies will help make Spirits a tough contingent in the force.

I have been wondering about letting any Spirits within x" of the Necromancer make an automatic At the Double move if the Necromancer does as well. One of my biggest complaints about playing a Dol Guldur themed list in WotR now (just using legal ally rules) is that some of my Spirits, such as Castellans, are left behind on the battlefield as all the rest of my Formations At the Double or Wings of Terror across the table. I've had some games where the Castellans don't even get into the game until the last turn or two of combat. :roll:

Alternatively there's the "Troll Charge" option where if the Necromancer calls an Heroic Charge then any Spirits within 12" may also call an Heroic Charge for free, even if they don't have a Hero.

I definitely want generic Orcs (and Orc Trackers) to be a big part of the force. So offering a Courage benefit or similar to them is an important part of the list. Many BHs give a Courage benefit to all member Formations within 12" of the core Hero, but I'm trying to keep the various contingents ( Orcish, Spider, Warg, Bats ) as separate and distinct. They are pulled together to serve but not to be treated identically.

Again...just throwing out thoughts here.
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