The One Ring :: View topic - Revisiting the Spider Queen

1-In terms of being nervous about Shelob's potential to run, like I said, I've never seen it happen. It's possible, and I wouldn't blame you for having that fear. I personally have a crippling fear of my big combat heroes getting dismounted, and it has led to me doing things like hiding them in forests all game instead of sticking them in combat. So if your fear of her running is as irrational as my fear of losing the mount, it's probably safer to not take her, you'll be too busy keeping her safe to actually make use of her. There, I agree. The trick is to either ensure you win the combat (hero/spear/banner support) or to not care because you know she has will remaining. When she's low on will, that's when you've got to be careful and retreat her until you can bring more might in.

2-
The Spider Queen has half the wounds and lower almost half the defence, I find she's more likely to die outright than Shelob is to run. Having said that, it's much the same game: pick your fights in such a way that you don't have to worry about her taking wounds. Freak accidents happen, just take that into account and adjust your strategy accordingly. Don't run her into a fully healthy Aragorn, she'll get butchered. Her job is to ruin your opponent's warriors and captains.

3-
I know I'm the one who brought up the Shelob comparison, but I find it to be a faulty one. They don't actually compete with one another. They do in that it's you ~100 point monster slot, but their functions are so different that it doesn't ever come up for me like that. If I'm stuck between Shelob and something else, usually the something else is a Ringwraith or occasionally a Troll Chieftain; things that are there to kill heroes. If I'm stuck between the Spider Queen and something else, that something else is along the lines of Shagrat or Gothmog; all capable of going up against Aragorns for a few turns, but much happier heroic combatting their way through warriors.

4-
Both the Spider Mamas are fairly straight forward to plug into an army. Decide what your army needs, whatever it is: there's a Spider Mama for that. SQ operates fairly independently from everything else, keep her safe before combat starts and keep her close enough that you can save her if need be, but she doesn't need a baby sitter. Shelob likes being supported, but her job lasts for one turn per game (two at worst) and then you can have her run around and do whatever. It's all about what the army needs.

Author:	mr. dude [ Sun Feb 28, 2016 10:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Revisiting the Spider Queen
We know what she can do, we saw the armies that she starred in before warbands came out and nerfed her. Yesterday, after years of obstinately holding back as a form of protest (it took me just as long to finally use Super Shagrat and I still refuse to use the Shadow Lord), I used her for the first time. The main thought that was going through my head: "Okay, I get it now". The rate at which she ripped warriors apart and ate little heroes, I could definitely understand the desire to field multiples of her back when that was allowed; especially that she was 40 points cheaper. So, today, I'm looking to start this topic up again. Now that she's not hideously underpriced and included in every tournament list ever created because hoorah for creativity, how do you feel about the Spider Queen? What do you use her for and how?

Author:	LordoftheBrownRing [ Thu Mar 03, 2016 8:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Revisiting the Spider Queen
Well first off I'd like to say I never played in tournaments in the day where she was used often. I can see if she cost around 85 pts or so how useful she would be. As of now lately though, Ive still been looking to put her in armies. Terror, movement bonus, re roll failed wounds, cavalry bonus, and three models with goblin profiles minus 1 defense. That right there is like 16 pts worth of stuff that can surprise your opponent. Ive heard of games won on the last turn by releasing them little sobs onto some domination pts..... Defense isnt great, but the fight forces enemies to heroic strikes unless theyre super tough guys, or elves.... In addition, its double striking with strength 6 if youre not on a horse. OH, AND A MONSTER. I think used in the right hands, she can be an incredibly valuable model. If I saw one against me, I would likely have to use my magic if I had no bows. And even with bows, minimum to wound for most armies is 5 and she has 3 wounds. Id say a resounding hell yes on using it. My problem comes in what type of force to put it in. I have never been good at building forces around a unit/to benefit to the maximum possible outcome. Basically though her with a wraith is deadly for enemy heroes.

Author:	polywags [ Fri Mar 04, 2016 2:22 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Revisiting the Spider Queen
Yeah she seems gnarly. I just picked her up to play the fall of the necromancer and I am looking forward to playing her in it. I think the most common army you see her in is the fellbeasts and then her added in at like 600 or 650 or something if you cant get another wraith.

Author:	LordoftheBrownRing [ Fri Mar 04, 2016 3:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Revisiting the Spider Queen
See that's one of the things I would never think about besides just using like one ringwraith. I could put together some cheesy armies sometimes but that army right there just screams terrible mess. It makes no sense. I mean I mix some power gamey combinations but a spider with all magicians ha-ha I'd hate to play it.

Author:	mr. dude [ Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Revisiting the Spider Queen
It's her might that really gets me. I'm always harping on about Shelob this and Shelob that, and she remains one of my favourite models to use, but to have a similar model with her own might points is so liberating. I'm not afraid of that heroic strike, I don't have to try to squeeze another captain in here to get the heroic combat, and I'm not as concerned with whiffing that dice roll. The extra attack and the might points mean that she can do her job in a hurry (whereas the key to using her grandma is patience). The Broodlings give you a great surprise factor. You can launch them out to tie up spear support, pull annoying models out of their combats, they basically have a 19" charge range and that means a lot of great tricks you can play. In terms of what armies she'd be good in, I'm finding that you don't need to do too much to cater to her. She's a great all-rounder that can be plugged into any number of armies, give her magic support if you want to be hunting big heroes, otherwise she's there to speed up your general killing process. Give her a target, she'll kill it, then move on to the next target.

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Revisiting the Spider Queen http://wwww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=31933	Page 1 of 1

Author:	LordoftheBrownRing [ Sat Mar 12, 2016 1:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Revisiting the Spider Queen
Yeah I mean to use her some day hopefully sooner rather than later. Ironically I just played someone with her Thursday. Unfortunately and fortunately I did not feel her full effects. The person I played deployed her ffàaarrr to my right and I immediately heroic marched away with Thorin and my warband(in this scenario Thorin needed to live for VPs) I ran away because that flank also had a dragon ha-ha. She managed to catch up to my Dwarves warband though and play with them like a ball in her hand. Either way it made me want to use her again. The might and extra attack I love. The main thing about her I like honestly is the rule shelob has about running away I HATE.

Author:	mr. dude [ Sun Mar 13, 2016 12:23 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Revisiting the Spider Queen
The scary thing about her is her low defence and lack of fate. Keep her safe from archers and don't let her have the lower FV in a fight, ever. After that, she runs riot all over your opponent's troops. I'm used to fielding hero-killers. She can do that job if you support her right (or the hero isn't too big), but she's one of the best models I have ever seen at gulping down huge quantities of warriors, especially for her points value. As for Shelob, believe me, she will never run away. Unless your opponent has Ringwraiths spamming Drain Courage and Sap Will on her, in which case you've got more immediate threats that the Ringwraiths aren't dealing with. She just has too high a defence and too much will to ever realistically run away. Dragons are more likely because they're bigger targets with less will, but I have never seen Mama Spidey run in all my (many MANY-eight years worth of) games using her. The big difference between Shelob and SQ is role: SQ mulches warriors and captains, Shelob is significantly worse at that but much better at assassinating big heroes.

Author:	LordoftheBrownRing [ Sun Mar 13, 2016 1:05 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Revisiting the Spider Queen
I see that completely. The difference in between the twos uses. My thing though is I never EVER want to risk fielding a model that might run away. In addition, I dont love independent evil heroes. Ive always(Im sure incorrectly) looked at Shelob as a bad profile Ill never use. I think part of the problem is I wouldnt do it correctly. Furthermore one attack kills me. One priority you lose, where she loses combat, and you get wounded after expending some will previously, and you lose nearly 100 pts. I never want that to happen. I've seen other crazy things happen. I wrote it down earlier to try to pitch her to myself more. Winners: Fight-Shelob-+1 Strength-Shelob-+1 Defense-Shelob-+3 Attacks-SQ-+1 Wounds-Shelob-+3 Might-SQ-+2 Will-Shelob-+3 So basically shelob comes out on top, but loses a lotof heroic strikes to any heros with two attacks and a shield. Intangibles: Shelob can run, and cant lead warbands. Those are two HUGE negatives in my book. Also, the spider queen gets 6 attacks on a won charge. And the two might is irreplaceable. I think with the amount of tough heroes in the game being used at least in my group of say 12 people and the amount of wraiths, Shelobs too big a liability to choose. In addition, to avoid being trapped or surpise the enemy, the SQ has little spiders. Im sure it still sucks to fight her, but I cant do it.

Author:	Arthas367 [ Sun Mar 13, 2016 10:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Revisiting the Spider Queen
You do know the spider queen is an independent hero correct ?

Author:	mr. dude [ Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Revisiting the Spider Queen
She can lead the Denizens of Mirkwood, but yeah, she's otherwise independent. It got corrected in the Mordor faq because the book lists her as a leader. I was in the middle of a thoughtful response last night when the computer casually logged me out, so expect something later

Author:	Arthas367 [ Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Revisiting the Spider Queen
LordoftheBrownRing wrote: In both army lists? Yes, in both Mordor and Moria. I assumed much of the community, especially anyone who likes to play in tournament or competitve settings are versed in the faqs. I struggle to fit her in many lists due to that fact, without tailoring to her, since she needs to be protected and supported or she wont hold up long left to her own devices. Why I kinda like Shelob, the higher defense, lower cost and fight force people into akward situations, and I generally bring a black Numes Warhorn to help with courage, she's easier to splash in a list in my opinion as she can operate on her own, and supported she's quite deadly to most things.

Author:	mr. dude [ Mon Mar 14, 2016 7:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Revisiting the Spider Queen
In terms of being nervous about Shelob's potential to run, like I said, I've never seen it happen. It's possible, and I wouldn't blame you for having that fear. I personally have a crippling fear of my big combat heroes getting dismounted, and it has led to me doing things like hiding them in forests all game instead of sticking them in combat. So if your fear of her running is as irrational as my fear of losing the mount, it's probably safer to not take her, you'll be too busy keeping her safe to actually make use of her. There, I agree. The trick is to either ensure you win the combat (hero/spear/banner support) or to not care because you know she has will remaining. When she's low on will, that's when you've got to be careful and retreat her until you can bring more might in. The Spider Queen has half the wounds and lower almost half the defence, I find she's more likely to die outright than Shelob is to run. Having said that, it's much the same game: pick your fights in such a way that you don't have to worry about her taking wounds. Freak accidents happen, just take that into account and adjust your strategy accordingly. Don't run her into a fully healthy Aragorn, she'll get butchered. Her job is to ruin your opponent's warriors and captains. I know I'm the one who brought up the Shelob comparison, but I find it to be a faulty one. They don't actually compete with one another. They do in that it's you ~100 point monster slot, but their functions are so different that it doesn't ever come up for me like that. If I'm stuck between Shelob and something else, usually the something else is a Ringwraith or occasionally a Troll Chieftain; things that are there to kill heroes. If I'm stuck between the Spider Queen and something else, that something else is along the lines of Shagrat or Gothmog; all capable of going up against Aragorns for a few turns, but much happier heroic combatting their way through warriors. Both the Spider Mamas are fairly straight forward to plug into an army. Decide what your army needs, whatever it is: there's a Spider Mama for that. SQ operates fairly independently from everything else, keep her safe before combat starts and keep her close enough that you can save her if need be, but she doesn't need a baby sitter. Shelob likes being supported, but her job lasts for one turn per game (two at worst) and then you can have her run around and do whatever. It's all about what the army needs.

Author:	Galanur [ Mon Mar 14, 2016 10:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Revisiting the Spider Queen
Already used both... Spider queen had some unfortunate encounter with dwarves once with poor rolls she managed to get into a corner vs 6 dwarves... only downside its the defence if you roll poorly... Still Spider Queen its an awesome goad to your plans, she can be "sneaky" enough to mess up with your oponents plans. And she moves incredibly fast for a foot monster... Shelob its less effective to kill overall but had good experiences with her as well, that D7 saved her days several times vs the common S4 models and can absorv a ridiculous amount of damage, something that the queen cannot afford to. I´ve used the spider queen really effectively on this themed list. viewtopic.php?f=37&t=27219&p=347009&hilit=foundations+of+stone#p347009

Author:	LordoftheBrownRing [ Tue Mar 15, 2016 12:28 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Revisiting the Spider Queen
Arthas367 wrote: LordoftheBrownRing wrote: In both army lists? Yes, in both Mordor and Moria. I assumed much of the community, especially anyone who likes to play in tournament or competitve settings are versed in the faqs. Lol. Thanks for basicslly calling me stupid. Considering I mentioned I've never played the model nor do I own it is it that a huge surprise? Our gaming group is responsible enough to know almost all the rules together. None of us have ever used a spider in an event this far. mr. dude wrote: 1-In terms of being nervous about Shelob's potential to run, like I said, I've never seen it happen. It's possible, and I wouldn't blame you for having that fear. I personally have a crippling fear of my big combat heroes getting dismounted, and it has led to me doing things like hiding them in forests all game instead of sticking them in combat. So if your fear of her running is as irrational as my fear of losing the mount, it's probably safer to not take her, you'll be too busy keeping her safe to actually make use of her. There, I agree. The trick is to either ensure you win the combat (hero/spear/banner support) or to not care because you know she has will remaining. When she's low on will, that's when you've got to be careful and retreat her until you can bring more might in. 2- The Spider Queen has half the wounds and lower almost half the defence, I find she's more likely to die outright than Shelob is to run. Having said that, it's much the same game: pick your fights in such a way that you don't have to worry about her taking wounds. Freak accidents happen, just take that into account and adjust your strategy accordingly. Don't run her into a fully healthy Aragorn, she'll get butchered. Her job is to ruin your opponent's warriors and captains. 3- I know I'm the one who brought up the Shelob comparison, but I find it to be a faulty one. They don't actually compete with one another. They do in that it's you ~100 point monster slot, but their functions are so different that it doesn't ever come up for me like that. If I'm stuck between Shelob and something else, usually the something else is a Ringwraith or occasionally a Troll Chieftain; things that are there to kill heroes. If I'm stuck between the Spider Queen and something else, that something else is along the lines of Shagrat or Gothmog; all capable of going up against Aragorns for a few turns, but much happier heroic combatting their way through warriors. 4- Both the Spider Mamas are fairly straight forward to plug into an army. Decide what your army needs, whatever it is: there's a Spider Mama for that. SQ operates fairly independently from everything else, keep her safe before combat starts and keep her close enough that you can save her if need be, but she doesn't need a baby sitter. Shelob likes being supported, but her job lasts for one turn per game (two at worst) and then you can have her run around and do whatever. It's all about what the army needs. 1- yeah as I said I think the problem is that I wouldn't know how to use it correctly and that would end up not using her to her full potential. If I have anybody in my gaming group that owns a spider I will try her out soon just to let you know how it goes and I'm not even kidding. 2-Yeah exactly. Totally agree. 3-i feel ya. Sometime if you don't mind can you just send me a Mordor Army list that you typically use with the spider in it? Usually if I go mordor I'll take a wraith, a Shaman, then a tough fighter and another hero for extra might like a Gorbag or taskmaster or something. 4- I think the freak accident thing is just what gets me worried because I see it happen quite frequently in our gaming group. I've seen four failed channeled fury spells in the last three months. I had used the new Bolg and in two separate games he rolled a total of maybe 4-5 turns of a 3 highest and was halted. I've seen an elf snipe after moving through 2 in the ways and kill a model to gain vps. Lots of craziness ha-ha.

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Author:	mr. dude [ Sun Apr 24, 2016 3:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Revisiting the Spider Queen
I just got home from a tournament where I decided to take the Spider Queen, my god is that beast worth it. Round 2: Domination. SQ poops out a Broodling to sit on one objective all game while I contested the other 4. Victory for me. Round 3: "Seek n Destroy", similar to Domination but where you wound the objectives then carry little tokens around for VPs. Does the wounding, and again, poops out Broodlings to sit on objectives while she goes and does something more immediately useful. We've talked about Broodlings being used to tie up spear support or to trap some models, but in this instance they gave me dominance over the board and won me those games.

Author:	LordoftheBrownRing [ Sun May 01, 2016 4:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Revisiting the Spider Queen
Thats pretty sick man. What army were you fighting against and how more specifically did you get past the defenses on those objectives? Did your opponent not have any models there?

Author:	mr. dude [ Mon May 02, 2016 12:31 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Revisiting the Spider Queen
The Domination game was against a Wanderers in the Wild/Radagast's Alliance/Shire mix, SQ produced the Broodling on the first turn which sat on an objective in my end of the board that my opponent never got to. The Search n Destroy mission was against a Dwarf army. Scoring worked by "killing" the objectives then picking them up once they have "died". SQ charges with a Broodling, does the killing, then a Broodling picks it up and hides. Did that twice. I never had to do too much to get past defences, the objectives were scattered and I sat the Broodlings on my home objectives mostly (they'd die too quickly if they had to defend anything).

Author:	LordoftheBrownRing [ Mon May 09, 2016 7:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Revisiting the Spider Queen
I really wanna make this year trying new units. Ive been so busy with real life that I havent done much so far. But basically I did finally get to play Azog! By the end of the year after Nova, Ill try the Spider queen. I also converted a Gil Galad and got/converted some knights of Rivendell. The spider is one of the top priorities though. Stay tuned haha.