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crushing Gil-galad on Horse and 4 other questions.
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Author:  J.R. [ Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:37 am ]
Post subject:  crushing Gil-galad on Horse and 4 other questions.
I just wanted to make sure we played this right, because we had a crushing victory on the good armies this weekend. also 4 questions.

I had the knight of umbar onf armoured fell beast charge gil-galad on horse. with a counter charge of two eagles that trapped the knight.

The fell beast had 2 attacks, the knight copy's -gil galads fight&attacks, so has 3 + 1 for the charge. A total of 6 attacks.

the eagles and gil galad threw a 6 , so did the knight. becouse the figh value 9 was equel, we threw a dice to determine the winner. The knight won and gil galad, was knocked prone (with or without horse?) and trapped.
so double to wounds, 12 dice. He was very dead.
(8 dice str 4 from knight)
(4 dice str 6 from fell beast )

I was amazed be the power the knight of umbar has in this, and just wanted to check if all was correctly played. :?
If so, he is the most potential fighting ringwraith there is, with the copying of stats, and his fell beast he will most times have enough dices to throw a six and a fight value to always have a 50% winning change. not to mention he doesn't loose will if he wins.

I also wonder :

1 .In this scenario would the ealges been knocked prone to ?

2. If William(biggest troll) wins the fight with an eagle can he trow him? if so, is it knocked prone ?

3. although nowwhere mentioned, oppenents had the idea that monsters that fly, cannot be trapped ( like the eagle ) We ruled that for that specific game the eagles incl the fell beast couldn't, which was ok, but I am curious about the true rules. so, can they be trapped when surrounded or in combi with question 1, knocked prone be trapped ?

4. other question : A troll fights a rivendell knight captain and he wins. His first strike is against the horse, which dies. Does the troll get the change to double his remaining 2 strikes against the knight who is thrown from his horse, or does he place his other 2 strikes before the rider is thrown and so the order in which I place strikes does not matter.

appreciate the answers !
Author:  Dikey [ Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: crushing Gil-galad on Horse and 4 other questions.
I think you rolled way to many dice. Rules for Nazgul on Fell Beast are basically the rules for cavalry. In this case, you should only have rolled 8 dice at strenght 6 (choosing the Knight Fight value and attacks and the Fell Beast streght).

Eagles do not get knocked down anyway, because they have both strenght 6.
Author:  J.R. [ Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: crushing Gil-galad on Horse and 4 other questions.
Dikey wrote:
I think you rolled way to many dice. Rules for Nazgul on Fell Beast are basically the rules for cavalry. In this case, you should only have rolled 8 dice at strenght 6 (choosing the Knight Fight value and attacks and the Fell Beast streght).

Eagles do not get knocked down anyway, because they have both strenght 6.


but the knight of umbar copys the attack value of gil galad, dus has 3+1 attack + 2 from fell beast. that is why I came to 12 dice.
Author:  ste271276 [ Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: crushing Gil-galad on Horse and 4 other questions.
noooooooooooooooooooooooooo u use either mount(2+1) or riders(1+1/mimic=3+1) attacks not both.
Author:  Arthas367 [ Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: crushing Gil-galad on Horse and 4 other questions.
As per cav rules you get to choose which Stat you like the best between mount and rider it's not additive, so you take Gils profile + 1 for charging for a total of 4 attacks, you win combat throwing him to the ground, thus having 8 attacks against Gil
Author:  Badner [ Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: crushing Gil-galad on Horse and 4 other questions.
No, you copy the basic stats which are not modify. It's the same with a heroic strike; if the KoU fights against Aragon who makes a heroic strike, the KoU gets F6 and not F6+a d6.
As for cavalry, yes, you mix the stats of the fellbeast and the rider. One question: If I don't want to kill somebody because this will end the scenario, am I allowed to use the worst stats?

1. No, because they have the same S. If it was the upgraded fellbeast with S7, yes.

2.Yes and yes. Because he has a better S.

3.Flying miniatures can be trapped. You also double your dices for wounding when a miniature is prone. If the miniature on the ground wins the fight, it doesn't make any strikes, it only stands up.

4. No, page 53, hits against cavalry models, last sentence:" ... after all attacks against rider and mount have been done" (translated by myself from German to English).
Author:  Arthas367 [ Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: crushing Gil-galad on Horse and 4 other questions.
I was under the impression it was it was upto the owner which Stat he chooses

And yes he copies unmodified which allows for him to transfix a target than steal their original Value, it also allows him to heroic strike on top of the stolen Value aswell
Author:  Dikey [ Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: crushing Gil-galad on Horse and 4 other questions.
J.R. wrote:
Dikey wrote:
I think you rolled way to many dice. Rules for Nazgul on Fell Beast are basically the rules for cavalry. In this case, you should only have rolled 8 dice at strenght 6 (choosing the Knight Fight value and attacks and the Fell Beast streght).

Eagles do not get knocked down anyway, because they have both strenght 6.


but the knight of umbar copys the attack value of gil galad, dus has 3+1 attack + 2 from fell beast. that is why I came to 12 dice.


has everyone else said, you got it wrong.
Monstrous Cavalry follows the basic rules for normal cavalry. You don't roll both the knight attacks and the monster, you choose the better value and add 1 for the charge.
In this scenario:
Since the Knight of Umbar has 3 attacks, this value is better than the Fell Beast (2) so you'll choose his Attacks. Charging, he gains a plus 1, for a total of 4 dice. You cannot duel using both values.
His modified fight is also better than the Fell beast, so you choose his Fight,
Knight has S4. Fell Beast has S6. That means, you'll choose the better value, in this case the fell beast.
So, in case of victory you have (3+1) x 2 attacks at S6. 8 attacks.

Consider the Nazgul on a fell beast as a common mounted model. the Fell Beast gives you better offensive stats from which you can choose from, can knock down cavalry and can perform brutal attacks so it's way more dangerous than a horse. But the core rules are the same
Author:  J.R. [ Tue Mar 31, 2015 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: crushing Gil-galad on Horse and 4 other questions.
Dikey wrote:
J.R. wrote:
Dikey wrote:
I think you rolled way to many dice. Rules for Nazgul on Fell Beast are basically the rules for cavalry. In this case, you should only have rolled 8 dice at strenght 6 (choosing the Knight Fight value and attacks and the Fell Beast streght).

Eagles do not get knocked down anyway, because they have both strenght 6.


but the knight of umbar copys the attack value of gil galad, dus has 3+1 attack + 2 from fell beast. that is why I came to 12 dice.


has everyone else said, you got it wrong.
Monstrous Cavalry follows the basic rules for normal cavalry. You don't roll both the knight attacks and the monster, you choose the better value and add 1 for the charge.
In this scenario:
Since the Knight of Umbar has 3 attacks, this value is better than the Fell Beast (2) so you'll choose his Attacks. Charging, he gains a plus 1, for a total of 4 dice. You cannot duel using both values.
His modified fight is also better than the Fell beast, so you choose his Fight,
Knight has S4. Fell Beast has S6. That means, you'll choose the better value, in this case the fell beast.
So, in case of victory you have (3+1) x 2 attacks at S6. 8 attacks.

Consider the Nazgul on a fell beast as a common mounted model. the Fell Beast gives you better offensive stats from which you can choose from, can knock down cavalry and can perform brutal attacks so it's way more dangerous than a horse. But the core rules are the same


Thanks for the very clear answer!
Still 8 s6 attacks is enough to crush him, so I feel the KOU is still a very potent combat beast.
Author:  Dikey [ Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: crushing Gil-galad on Horse and 4 other questions.
8 S6 dice and average luck are enough to put down any good hero.
If you want to go hero-hunting, the Knight of Umbar on Fell Beast is THE Nazgul you want. No will lost when the duel is won and the mimic ability works even if the target is immobilized, because he takes the unaltered values of his opponent. Many love with Khamul, but I think the Knight is the best fighting Nazgul, not counting the full powered Witch King.
Author:  alexanjason [ Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: crushing Gil-galad on Horse and 4 other questions.
OK, so after reading all this, I have a question that might just show how dumb and inexperienced I am.

If you charge a model with two of yours, why is it that you can't use both of their attacks combined? With the KoU using his affect to get Gil-Galad's attacks, why wouldn't you also include the Fell Beasts strikes after winning the combat? I am confused about that.
Author:  Badner [ Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: crushing Gil-galad on Horse and 4 other questions.
The answer is simple: Because the rules say that cavalry counts as one miniature with a combined profile. You dont have to understand it in a logical way, you only have to accept it.
Author:  alexanjason [ Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: crushing Gil-galad on Horse and 4 other questions.
So even if you have two mounted profiles(ie riders of rohan) charge an enemy, and you win the fight, you only strike twice? one for normal + one for charge?
Author:  Dikey [ Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: crushing Gil-galad on Horse and 4 other questions.
alexanjason wrote:
So even if you have two mounted profiles(ie riders of rohan) charge an enemy, and you win the fight, you only strike twice? one for normal + one for charge?


You choose only one attack value, either the rider's or the mount's, which one is better, and add bonus for charging.
Example: Shadow Lord on Fell Beast. The Shadow Lord has only 1 attack, the Fell Beast 2. So you choose the better value, 2, and add the bonus for the charge.
The Witch King with the Crown has 3 attacks, his Fell beast 2. That means that, in this example, the Witch King has the better attack value. So you have 3 attacks, plus one for charging.
You do the same with the Strenght Value, picking the best between the Rider and the Mount (in said example, the Fell Beast's Strengh is better.)

If you win the fight after a charge you'll knock the opponents to the ground, and then you will DOUBLE the strikes.
That means (i keep following the example above) the charging Shadow Lord on Fell Beast has 6 strikes [(2+1) x2] while the WitchKing has 8 strikes [(3+1)x2]
A Rohan Rider strikes 4 times [(1+1)x2], and so do most of the normal cavalry models
Author:  alexanjason [ Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: crushing Gil-galad on Horse and 4 other questions.
OK, i got it now. I was misunderstanding something else completely. Sorry everyone. It was Friday after working 30 straight hours(yes I really do have days like that) and I was misreading this entire thing. Brain was fried haha. I know where I went wrong. Thanks for being patient with me.
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