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Optional Lurtz Profile
http://wwww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=30644		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Siegrend [ Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:07 am ]
Post subject:  Optional Lurtz Profile
With Galanur putting out a desperately needed alternative Balrog profile (I really like adding magic to him!), it got me thinking again about all the others that were discussed in the recent posts about the "blah" profiles. I searched older posts as I've not been registered all that long and it seems like there have been a lot of talk about alternative profiles. But has the group as a whole ever come to a consensus on any? Are there house rules for any of these that agreement by the collective has been made?

My son loves Isengard, with Lurtz being one of his favorites from the movies, but the profile was so lackluster that I long ago made a different one for him to use. It may be overpowered, I don't know, but he has fun with it. Just curious what the rest of you think...honest opinions.

Lurtz, General of Isengard
Fight 5/4+ , Strength 5, Defense 6, Attacks 3, Wounds 3, Courage 5, Might 4, Will 1, and Fate 1.

Cost: 130

Equipment: Armor, Shield, Sword and Lurtz's Bow

Special Rules:
Lurtz's Bow: Range 18", Strength 5. Although just an average bowman, Lurtz's bow delivers a powerfully large arrow that causes grave injury. However, it takes such strength to draw this weapon, Lurtz may not fire his bow if he moved this turn.

Expert Figher: Lurtz gains all advantages of carrying a shield despite being equipped with a bow.

General of Isengard: All Uruk Hai Scouts within 3" of Lurtz, General of Isengard are considered to be within range of a banner.
Author:  Jacob [ Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Optional Lurtz Profile
Hi Siegrend,

Me and my brother have a profile that we use that is very similar to yours, feel free to combine the two!

LURTZ, FIRST OF THE WHITE HAND (Uruk-hai) (Custom Profile)
Points Value: 90

Move F S D A W C Might Will Fate

6” 5/4+ 5 5(6) 2 3 4 3 1 0

Equipment:
Armour, orc bow and shield.

Shield Brawler. Lurtz is able to wield his bow and shield expertly; he gains the Defence bonus of the shield whilst carrying his bow. Additionally, should Lurtz choose to Shield, if he wins the Duel Roll he may make a single strike at his Strength.

Hunter. Lurtz does not suffer an accuracy penalty for moving and shooting with his bow. Additionally, he may re-roll To Hit rolls with his bow if he is within 12” of his target.

Any number of Uruk-hai Scouts may be upgraded to Lurtz’ Hunters at a cost of +1 point per model. Lurtz’ Hunters do not suffer an accuracy penalty for moving and may also receive shield defence benefits whilst carrying bows.
--------------
I know a lot of people have different opinions on this but here's a few design choices:

3W 0F this is to make him a little better and also to match him up thematically as kind of a rival to Boromir.

Hunter: I think that the whole point with Lirtz is that he's pursuing his target constantly, I know in gane terms people will use this to fall back but it would be nice to have him be able to hunt down an opponent whilst shooting at them. A +1 to wound at close range could work better than a re-folly o hit?

I like your banner rule, the only reason mine doesn't is cause there's a lot of other stuff going on- maybe he should get some kind of 4+ to recover might on heroic moves and marches too to show his speed in the chase?

On another note, I'm all about house rules and have lots (just so we can keep collecting and keep our games fresh) I'd love to see a community sourcebook somehow!
Author:  LordoftheBrownRing [ Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Optional Lurtz Profile
For your son of course it's a different story, but I'd l I say change his to hit to 3+ make his bow strength 3, and take away the banner. 4 might is way too much as well. No way he gets more than 3.

Strength 5 for the bow is absolutely overpowered even with family house rules. Even give him two shots per turn maybe but that profile you have is so so powerful.
Author:  Dikey [ Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Optional Lurtz Profile
S5 Bow is far overpowered, even for house rules.

I would just give Lurtz the Expert Archer rule and increase his shooting value to 3+.
Author:  Frêrin [ Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Optional Lurtz Profile
Dikey wrote:
S5 Bow is far overpowered, even for house rules.

I thought that, too. But you are not allowed to move if you want to shoot so it is just a xbow with +1S and this isn't that powerful if you compare it with Vrasku. I don't like house rules, but I would give him something like this:

F S D A W C M W F
5/4+ 5 6 3 2 5 3 1 1

Armour, Shield, Bow

Special Rule:
Fury: Lurtz always counts as being affected by fury.

I'm not a fan of that many special rules. A few years ago heros like Faramir or Eomer didn't need a special rule. Today even warriors need to have one to be something special (Gundabad Blackshields, Mirkwoodrangers...). But if you want a special rule: keep it simple! There are many special rules you can abuse in an unintended way. Look at the Fury special rule. You can't abuse it, because it is that simple and just uses something that allready exists.

But if you like it more special I would take something like this:
Hunter: At the beginning of the game select one of your opponent's hero. Lurtz rerolls all ones when making to-hit, combat and to wound rolls. But he has to attack the hero, if there is the possibility to do at the start of Lurtz's move. If the selected hero is dead, select a new one (if there is one left).
Author:  Grungehog [ Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Optional Lurtz Profile
3+ shoot and D6 keep him at 60 points
Author:  Badner [ Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Optional Lurtz Profile
I would say, give him Narzug's special rule and the ability to use shield and v
bow. Lurtz should be a low point hero.
Author:  JamesR [ Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Optional Lurtz Profile
I agree with many of the above suggestions. Shoot value of 3+, Defense of 6 is sufficient to accurately depict him from the movie. His bow isn't stronger than any other Uruk bow, he's just skilled enough to stand still and fire while his opponent is busy.

And the only thing that allowed him to stand as long as he did against Aragorn was his physical strength (S5) and Aragorn's having already fought through literal tons of Uruk-hai.

Lurtz doesn't demonstrate great command abilities, his troops die by the score while he's around, he doesn't demonstrate great archery ability, he makes a few moderately difficult shots, none of them to a difficult target like the neck etc. And he doesn't demonstrate great combat prowess, he doesn't fight Boromir, he hangs back and he only fights Aragorn because he has to. I don't get all the OP love for a character that showed nothing to indicate he was outstanding
Author:  MRmehman [ Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Optional Lurtz Profile
JamesR wrote:
I agree with many of the above suggestions. Shoot value of 3+, Defense of 6 is sufficient to accurately depict him from the movie. His bow isn't stronger than any other Uruk bow, he's just skilled enough to stand still and fire while his opponent is busy.

And the only thing that allowed him to stand as long as he did against Aragorn was his physical strength (S5) and Aragorn's having already fought through literal tons of Uruk-hai.

Lurtz doesn't demonstrate great command abilities, his troops die by the score while he's around, he doesn't demonstrate great archery ability, he makes a few moderately difficult shots, none of them to a difficult target like the neck etc. And he doesn't demonstrate great combat prowess, he doesn't fight Boromir, he hangs back and he only fights Aragorn because he has to. I don't get all the OP love for a character that showed nothing to indicate he was outstanding


While I wouldn't disagree with you there, I do think Lurtz did do a lot more then what your describing him as. Tbh none of the supposed "Evil Commanders" really do all that much commanding throughout the trilogy aside from Gothmog. The Which King; ruler of Angmar, being responsible for the fall of Arnor and leader of the nine is boiled down to just a killer in the Peter Jackson trilogy.

I reckon that Lurtz shot Boromir in the back more because he wanted him to suffer then because he couldn't make the shots. After all, Uruk Hai love to cause pain and destruction.

Still, some of these rules are very OP looking.
Author:  Siegrend [ Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Optional Lurtz Profile
Thanks for all the feedback guys!

I honestly thought a Range 18" Strength 5 bow (that acts as a crossbow) on a 4+ wasn't all that overpowered considering Vrasku gets two Str. 4 shots on a 3+. I also believe his bow seemed stronger (in the movies) than the average orc bow. The thing creaked like crazy as he pulled it back and those arrows sticking out of Boromir were huge!

However, I have to agree with Lord of the Brown Ring as far as having too much Might. The banner might also be a bit too much, but my kid has so much fun with it!! :)

So, I do have another question. Why does everyone believe Isengard does not need a 100+ point hero? (Excepting Saruman). Mordor has several in Gothmog, Shagrat, not to mention 9 Ringwraiths each with different abilities. Outside of goblins and hobbits, most other armies have some higher end heroes. Why shouldn't Isengard have a Grand Captain?
Author:  Frêrin [ Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Optional Lurtz Profile
Siegrend wrote:
So, I do have another question. Why does everyone believe Isengard does not need a 100+ point hero? (Excepting Saruman). Mordor has several in Gothmog, Shagrat, not to mention 9 Ringwraiths each with different abilities. Outside of goblins and hobbits, most other armies have some higher end heroes. Why shouldn't Isengard have a Grand Captain?

Why must every fraction have everything?
Author:  JamesR [ Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Optional Lurtz Profile
Because of the price of Uruk-hai troops. The lower points heroes help balance this out. And their heroes with support that equals the points differential are usually more deadly than the more expensive hero they're dueling
Author:  Siegrend [ Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Optional Lurtz Profile
JamesR wrote:
Because of the price of Uruk-hai troops. The lower points heroes help balance this out. And their heroes with support that equals the points differential are usually more deadly than the more expensive hero they're dueling


Okay, I can see your point there. The same could be said of Elves though, who have a handful of high costed Heroes too, no? Or am I missing your point entirely?

Not trying to argue or anything, and no, every faction doesn't need everything... I was just curious why a higher end fighting hero in the Isengard lists would be such a bad thing. I'm pretty much in agreement about much of the tweaks and comments made about the Lurtz profile I made for my kid (I knew it was overpowered but if he enjoys the game, that's a plus for me). But it would be nice if GW gave a loved character like he and Theoden a little somethin' somethin'.
Author:  ja33 [ Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Optional Lurtz Profile
I actually think your "house profile" is spot on for Lurtz. I would disagree with those who say he didn't prove himself in the movie. Aragorn - tired or not - almost died fighting him one on one. And Lurtz was wounded 3 separate times during that fight (throwing dagger to the leg, arm chopped off, and sword thru his entire body !) and he kept fighting before being decapitated - that sounds like it would be worth 3 or 4 wounds in a GW profile ! :)

Also agree with the bow rule - that thing was massive and the arrows sticking out of poor Boromir looked like mini-spears !
Author:  JamesR [ Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Optional Lurtz Profile
ja33 wrote:
Also agree with the bow rule - that thing was massive and the arrows sticking out of poor Boromir looked like mini-spears !


I'd disagree, "Spears" lol they're not much larger than elven arrows, if any larger at all.

Image

Image

A S5 bow is bordering on siege engine strength and is way OP for SBG, Vrasku is an OP model himself with his bow, he shouldn't be able to shoot twice, but unfortunately he can.

ja33 wrote:
I actually think your "house profile" is spot on for Lurtz. I would disagree with those who say he didn't prove himself in the movie. Aragorn - tired or not - almost died fighting him one on one.

But to toss aside what Aragorn has already been through is to make an unfair comparison. It'd be like saying "Haldir died to an Uruk, therefore the Uruk is better than him and should have a profile to show such", obviously Haldir is better at combat than a lowly Uruk-hai.

Siegrend wrote:
Not trying to argue or anything, and no, every faction doesn't need everything... I was just curious why a higher end fighting hero in the Isengard lists would be such a bad thing.


I don't think its so much a "bad thing", were they to have it. I was more addressing why their current situation is so advantageous for them. Mahur can match many top tier heroes with his 3 attacks, all Uruk heroes have S5 which is huge, an unnamed Captain can be S5 D7 which is INCREDIBLE! Lol by far the best unnamed captain IMO. So its not that its "bad", they just don't really need one
Author:  Dikey [ Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Optional Lurtz Profile
I rewatched the scene, and I came out with the idea that Lurtz profile is actually quite accurate. He wasn't that badass shooter I remembered. But he still was a pretty good fighter.

He always took his time to shoot an arrow, doing so while standing still. he never perfermed a difficult shoot: Boromir was always a clean target (didn't have his shield, always hit AFTER slashing down a uruk, which means no obstacle in front of him)

The only thing Lurtz may need, after all, is a rule which allows him to save his shield bonus while having a bow. Maybe, just maybe, a third attack. Aragorn was tired and all, but he still had problems to deal with Lurtz.

He's not a commander, while Ugluk is (both in book and movie). He seems totally uninterested in his fellow uruks.

Quote:
Vrasku is an OP model himself with his bow, he shouldn't be able to shoot twice, but unfortunately he can.


the first time my opponent told me of Vrasku, I didn't even believe him. He still had his doubts, so we depowered him a little. Then I found out he was right about Vrasku.
What a terrific model. A "must have" in every Isengard army,
Author:  Frêrin [ Wed Mar 04, 2015 11:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Optional Lurtz Profile
JamesR wrote:
I don't think its so much a "bad thing", were they to have it. I was more addressing why their current situation is so advantageous for them.

Say this again after you wrote an armylist and there are 40 points left. The most other factions could upgrade a hero or downgrade and have another half warband. But with Isengard if you don't want to field Thrydan (35 points more expensive than all the others) or have 8 Berserkers...what shall you do? It isn't that easy if you only got heros about 60 points, one 95 and then 170/195 :x
Author:  LordoftheBrownRing [ Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Optional Lurtz Profile
Quote:
So, I do have another question. Why does everyone believe Isengard does not need a 100+ point hero? (Excepting Saruman). Mordor has several in Gothmog, Shagrat, not to mention 9 Ringwraiths each with different abilities. Outside of goblins and hobbits, most other armies have some higher end heroes. Why shouldn't Isengard have a Grand Captain?


I personally do not believe that any force doesnt deserve a 100+ point hero......BUT.....

I think Isengard was built as a flash attack force with no real idea of people like Gothmog, or Shagrat living for hundreds of years slaying men elves and dwarves in battle. They have no way to rank up and become powerful and stronger at fighting and heroic things.

In addition....although strong, Uruks are pretty much green soldiers. They are good at fighting, but they are by far no more than strong assembly line heroes and troops.

If they did have such a hero, my bid would go to the Uruk leading the troops to Helms deep. He was in charge of a force much larger than Lurtz with a bigger goal. Lurtz troops wanted the ring, but at the same time, in Helms Deep it was the Ring and the destruction of Rohan.

Thats the way I see it.

I personally made a profile for Lurtz I discussed with Glory4Gondor where I made lurtz fight 5 strength 5 attacks 3 Wounds 3 Courage ? And 3/1/1 for might will and fate and instead hes got a 3+ to shoot and Narzugs special rule. I think thats about as tough as Id make him.

You see him fight a tired Aragorn who clearly has at least 1 wound on him and takes another(lol sbg through movie) and no might(besides 1 free per turn) and he still dispatches Lurtz after a Slightly quick duel with no help.
Author:  Grungehog [ Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Optional Lurtz Profile
isengard is only a weak list in the wrong hands
Author:  Siegrend [ Wed Mar 04, 2015 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Optional Lurtz Profile
LordoftheBrownRing wrote:
In addition....although strong, Uruks are pretty much green soldiers. They are good at fighting, but they are by far no more than strong assembly line heroes and troops.

If they did have such a hero, my bid would go to the Uruk leading the troops to Helms deep. He was in charge of a force much larger than Lurtz with a bigger goal. Lurtz troops wanted the ring, but at the same time, in Helms Deep it was the Ring and the destruction of Rohan.

Thats the way I see it.

I personally made a profile for Lurtz I discussed with Glory4Gondor where I made lurtz fight 5 strength 5 attacks 3 Wounds 3 Courage ? And 3/1/1 for might will and fate and instead hes got a 3+ to shoot and Narzugs special rule. I think thats about as tough as Id make him.


I like your thoughts here LotBR. Created by Saruman, they were, in fact, green warriors with great strength but little experience. I also like your Lurtz profile, why didn't you share that in the first place?! :) I may still keep the ability to use his shield while carrying the bow though. What point cost did you have for your version?
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