The One Ring :: View topic - Most OP evil model

After a "most OP good model" topic I figured an evil one could be interesting too.
What is the most OP evil model?
-Sauron with the one ring
-Shade
-Corsair reaper
Or any other?

I don't know if he's OP but for less pts than an armored boromir, Gothmog is very powerful. His stats are above average including a nice defense, but his bread and butter is his free might. The ability to cou ter any heroic action is *amazing*! The only good model who has something similar is aragorn and he costs a small fortune to field. I'm also a fan of budget heroes. I dont think they're OP, but when you need a bit of inexpensive muscle it is hard to overlook guys like faramir or cirion.

The corsair reaper is a solid light infintry, but in my experience the corsair of umbar is better. Say what? Yeah, throwing weapons are where its at. A cluster of corsairs with throwing weapons is far more leathal than a reaver. A warband of corsairs could take out your biggest hitter before you could react. The reaver still has to win the fight before he can start to harm you. The corsairs just have to run at you and start throwing their ninja stars.

jdizzy001 wrote:

Reavers are way better as they can draw combats with elves. Way to good of a stat

Yeah I completely agree. I've discussed many a time the idea of only allowing 33% of your warriors to be 'elites' essentially just like your bow limit. It would obviously need a sourcebook revision or FAQ to classify which warriors were classed as elites but would be simple, effective ad would nicely deal with Watchers, Ferals, Reavers, Fountain Court, Khazad Guard etc. and many of the elite spam lists.

Just my 2 cents.

Author:	Reto [ Sat Apr 19, 2014 8:44 am ]
Post subject:	Most OP evil model
After a "most OP good model" topic I figured an evil one could be interesting too. What is the most OP evil model? -Sauron with the one ring -Shade -Corsair reaper Or any other?

Author:	LordoftheBrownRing [ Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Most OP evil model
Reto wrote: After a "most OP good model" topic I figured an evil one could be interesting too. What is the most OP evil model? -Sauron with the one ring -Shade -Corsair reaper Or any other? Watchers of karna easily. Good fight multiple attacks. They can take a bow and shoot at three plus and have like 3 special abilities!!! For I think under 11 pts wtf. Corsairs do have a ridic fight value but that's they only good thing. Two attacks is good two but they still cost more than a basic watcher. Sauron....well.....I don't know how anyone could consider any figure at that many pts op.....

Author:	Valadorn [ Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:55 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Most OP evil model
Watchers are indeed op for their points. For sure sauron is an op model when we speak about heroes. You will only understand his powers when you face him in battle. Send to him as many watchers as you want while he holds the ring.... A named nazgul on a fell beast is also a very good one though worse than sauron imo.

Author:	Bernardo [ Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Most OP evil model
sauron is definately OP with his ring on, but try to win a scenario with him in your list, it becomes amazingly difficult.

Author:	jdizzy001 [ Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Most OP evil model
I don't know if he's OP but for less pts than an armored boromir, Gothmog is very powerful. His stats are above average including a nice defense, but his bread and butter is his free might. The ability to cou ter any heroic action is amazing! The only good model who has something similar is aragorn and he costs a small fortune to field. I'm also a fan of budget heroes. I dont think they're OP, but when you need a bit of inexpensive muscle it is hard to overlook guys like faramir or cirion. The corsair reaper is a solid light infintry, but in my experience the corsair of umbar is better. Say what? Yeah, throwing weapons are where its at. A cluster of corsairs with throwing weapons is far more leathal than a reaver. A warband of corsairs could take out your biggest hitter before you could react. The reaver still has to win the fight before he can start to harm you. The corsairs just have to run at you and start throwing their ninja stars.

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Author:	mertaal [ Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Most OP evil model
Fell Beasts seem very underpointed to me.

Author:	JamesR [ Sat Apr 19, 2014 2:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Most OP evil model
jdizzy001 wrote: I don't know if he's OP but for less pts than an armored boromir, Gothmog is very powerful. His stats are above average including a nice defense, but his bread and butter is his free might. The ability to cou ter any heroic action is amazing! The only good model who has something similar is aragorn and he costs a small fortune to field. I'm also a fan of budget heroes. I dont think they're OP, but when you need a bit of inexpensive muscle it is hard to overlook guys like faramir or cirion. The corsair reaper is a solid light infintry, but in my experience the corsair of umbar is better. Say what? Yeah, throwing weapons are where its at. A cluster of corsairs with throwing weapons is far more leathal than a reaver. A warband of corsairs could take out your biggest hitter before you could react. The reaver still has to win the fight before he can start to harm you. The corsairs just have to run at you and start throwing their ninja stars. If they can hit anything with the move and shoot penalty Reavers are way better as they can draw combats with elves. Way to good of a stat

Author:	Nikrandonia [ Sat Apr 19, 2014 3:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Most OP evil model
Corsair Reavers for me are the most OP model for evil. The only other warriors (25 points below) in the game to match 2 attacks at fight 5 are the half trolls and Wood elf Sentinels. In my view Corsair Reavers have roughly the stats that elves should have. I would argue that the Watcher of Karna is the best overall model and should probably be 10pts for base profile. Sauron is very good but in terms of how tournament scenarios are often set out I haven't seen neither can I think of a good army to play alongside him. I guess the shade is the most overpowered hero as it has a game winning ability which no other model in the game has. They should really be independent heroes to balance out how game changing they are.

Author:	Paboook [ Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Most OP evil model
I probably agree about the reavers... Their 2 attacks, F vallue and ridiculously low price make them just crazy. Also: Why are some dirty corsairs much better fighters than the noble men of Numenor?

Author:	LordElrond [ Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Most OP evil model
Surely the Undying on fellbeast. A combat hero who can't die, and is constantly casting spells and regaining will and fate! While chucking a single model into a whole line if others and basically winning the game in one go?

Author:	jdizzy001 [ Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Most OP evil model
JamesR wrote: jdizzy001 wrote: I don't know if he's OP but for less pts than an armored boromir, Gothmog is very powerful. His stats are above average including a nice defense, but his bread and butter is his free might. The ability to cou ter any heroic action is amazing! The only good model who has something similar is aragorn and he costs a small fortune to field. I'm also a fan of budget heroes. I dont think they're OP, but when you need a bit of inexpensive muscle it is hard to overlook guys like faramir or cirion. The corsair reaper is a solid light infintry, but in my experience the corsair of umbar is better. Say what? Yeah, throwing weapons are where its at. A cluster of corsairs with throwing weapons is far more leathal than a reaver. A warband of corsairs could take out your biggest hitter before you could react. The reaver still has to win the fight before he can start to harm you. The corsairs just have to run at you and start throwing their ninja stars. Reavers are way better as they can draw combats with elves. Way to good of a stat Doesnt the move and shoot penalty only apply to bows and crossbows. Not throwing weapons. At least according to page 23 of my rules manual. Did something change in the hobbit sbg regarding shooting and moving?

Author:	SouthernDunedain [ Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Most OP evil model
Reavers are meh. Gang up on them with lots of spears and down they go. Same as hunter orcs. Low D = bad therefore balanced. Warg marauders, now there's a broken model. 3A base, cannot be dismounted and causes terror, plus can move full and still shoot twice. Those things are deadly.

Author:	JamesR [ Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Most OP evil model
But at that point cost? Idk, I've yet to bring them because on paper they don't look like they're worth more than the 9 Moria Goblins that they prevent you from bringing

Author:	Dr Grant [ Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Most OP evil model
Warg Marauders are absolutely horrific. Bringing one along probably isn't worth it as you can easily target it and take it down but as soon as you start using a few of them they become nigh on unstoppable. A guy in the UK tourney scene runs 5 marauders, Durburz, Shaman and 14 goblins at 350. Maruaders with Fury and spear support- absolutely horrific. Sauron's good but at that points cost he's not OP and, as others have said, it's easy to beat him in the scenarios. Watchers of Karna are obscenely broken, it's not simply a matter of how undercosted they are, it's how the bonuses stack (3+ shoot and poison is worth more in an army list that allows 50% bows), you have to walk towards them and when what's left of your army gets their they have F4 and 2 attacks - absolutely stupid profile. There's a clear winner for me - Named Ringwraiths on Fell Beasts. Normal Wraiths on Fell Beasts are bad but the stupid, broken rules that the named versions have make them completely overpowered and unenjoyable to play against. The Fell Beast should comfortably be 100 points (consider that a Cave Troll is 80 and an Eagle is 90) for the boost it gives the Ringwraith. Horrible things.

Author:	Coenus Scaldingus [ Sun Apr 20, 2014 8:54 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Most OP evil model
Completely agreed, I think I proposed something like that 5 years ago: not so much out of game balance, but rather because of the theme (an entire army of Fountain Guard.. nah, that simply doesn't feel right). It could also help with balancing the forces better in slightly more complicated structures: some lists may have a higher proportion of elites, or underused heroes (well, at least those for whom it fits thematically) could allow for some extra elite troops (e.g. Théoden could bring some extra RRG or SoE along). Could actually be a logical follow-up to the current upgrades provided by some heroes, and force structures dependent on models in that list. The true power of elites now is usually mitigated by the fact that most people will own only few, but a list of just Watchers of Kârna with spear support is truly scary. For just two points more than a Ranger of Gondor (when equipped with bow) they get an extra attack - which already is too cheap - as well as three nice special rules. The main problem with Reavers (disregarding any judgement on whether a pirate should equal an Elf in the first place) is that they are cheap to field (as in actual cost in money) and can these days be modelled with axes. A low defence is only so much of a problem if you barely lose any fights, especially since shooting has become less popular as of late. The main problem remaining is that you still are only S3, so killing D6+ enemies still takes some time. That one downside is then removed. But of course, regulation of hand weapons is necessity anyway.

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Author:	JamesR [ Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Most OP evil model
I feel like (and everyone may not agree with me on this of course) that the simple solution to units like Watchers of Karna and the like is to have some sort of force organization that prevents you from spamming them. I only own 3 so in our games no one minds them much at all

Author:	Dr Grant [ Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Most OP evil model
Yeah I completely agree. I've discussed many a time the idea of only allowing 33% of your warriors to be 'elites' essentially just like your bow limit. It would obviously need a sourcebook revision or FAQ to classify which warriors were classed as elites but would be simple, effective ad would nicely deal with Watchers, Ferals, Reavers, Fountain Court, Khazad Guard etc. and many of the elite spam lists. Just my 2 cents.

Author:	LordElrond [ Sun Apr 20, 2014 7:38 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Most OP evil model
Dr Grant wrote: Yeah I completely agree. I've discussed many a time the idea of only allowing 33% of your warriors to be 'elites' essentially just like your bow limit. It would obviously need a sourcebook revision or FAQ to classify which warriors were classed as elites but would be simple, effective ad would nicely deal with Watchers, Ferals, Reavers, Fountain Court, Khazad Guard etc. and many of the elite spam lists. Just my 2 cents. A bit like in War of the Ring, where you have to have more common formations than rare or legendary ones.

Author:	mertaal [ Sun Apr 20, 2014 8:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Most OP evil model
Dr Grant wrote: Yeah I completely agree. I've discussed many a time the idea of only allowing 33% of your warriors to be 'elites' essentially just like your bow limit. It would obviously need a sourcebook revision or FAQ to classify which warriors were classed as elites but would be simple, effective ad would nicely deal with Watchers, Ferals, Reavers, Fountain Court, Khazad Guard etc. and many of the elite spam lists. Just my 2 cents. QFT.