The One Ring :: View topic - Unused Spells So Far

I don't think there are just human sorcerers walking about in Middle-Earth, from what I understand, if any magic were to be learned by a mere man it would be as a result of some writings by the Witch-king or Sauron.

Fury is less magic and more simply whipping up your soldiers into a berserk mood. This is actually a real life thing with Vikings, being able to basically ignore wounds.
Fireburst and such shouldn't even be spells, since in LOTR dark magic revolves around fear and curses neither or which provides fireballs.

Magic in Lotr isn't really available to men, aside from those who like the nazgul and the mouth are basically zombies. The elf magic seems to be some sort of technology (elven cloaks = camoflauge coats, lembas = army rations, the girdle of Melian = forcefields). If you can find "The Science of Middle-Earth" by Henry Gee it has some good stuff to say on the subject.

As for the spells themselves I really like them, subtle yet powerful. Curse especially is very nice.

Barrow Wights are made through killing with enchanted weapons ie a morgul blade. When Aragorn says of Frodo in the fellowship "he will soon become a wraith like them" he doesn't mean Frodo will become a Nazgul but that he'll be a wraith/spirit. Frodo would have become a barrow wight under the Witch-King's power as the Morgul blade would cause him to be enslaved to the WK.

You're correct on Elrond being able to control the river but you have to remember that in LOTR, especially as Tolkien wrote it, magic is very subtle. It's not Jedi-esque or like Harry Potter where it's flashy and dramatic.

It seems the passage implies that Frodo would become a lesser wraith but not a barrow-wight, more of a species differentiation than anything else. However, only the forces of evil ever try to use such hateful magic. Just because Elrond "caused the waters to rise" doesn't necessarily mean he invoked some spell to do so. That Tolkien Gateway thing only said that he "looked" like an old wizard, which is entirely different to being one. The entire story is being written from a hobbit point of view where elves do things that can only be explained as magic to someone of Frodo's experience. Finally, the only real magic in the series is that used by Maiar or Sauron's servants imbued with Maiarish power (such as the Ringwraiths) who therefore have abilities as a result of being a totally different species. Of course, this is all just my interpretation of events.

Author:	Tezzy [ Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:30 am ]
Post subject:	Unused Spells So Far
So reading through the main rulebook, I'm sure a lot of you are aware of the new spells in the book that nobody in the game can cast yet. I'd like to just have an opinion thread on these spells and how they will effect the game if/when they are introduced! Banishment: This one will be crazy, since it can instant-kill Ringwraiths, the Necromancer, and the Castellans of Dol Guldur (if these two profiles return or remain unchanged). If someone with a Staff of Power or similar ability got this spell, Ringwraiths would be feeling the pain! Sure to be Good only. Curse: I would love this spell personally, as I think it would help bring down some of the crazier heroes who have to be killed through attrition. I can see this being a hard spell to cast or at least short range, as the channeled version is amazing. I am guessing it will be Evil Only. Fortify Spirit: This spell I feel will be great for those times when you fight wizards. A Dragon with Fortify Spirit wouldn't be transfixed the whole game when fighting Gandalf, or will make using Ents and Eagles not spell fodder, for example. I imagine this will be a hard spell to cast, but will be worth it. I doubt Evil will have access, however. I might have missed some, as off the top of my head I am not sure if any hero can cast Strengthen Will. If I had my dreams fufilled, I would love to see more unnamed spellcasters. If the White Council thought the Necromancer could just be a human, then surely that means there are human magic users out there. Perhaps not on the side of good, but I would love to see an Evil human mage who actually is a necromancer. He could have Curse and Drain Courage, or something like that. Anyways, throw some ideas out there

Author:	JamesR [ Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:37 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Unused Spells So Far
Gandalf can strengthen will. I don't think there are just human sorcerers walking about in Middle-Earth, from what I understand, if any magic were to be learned by a mere man it would be as a result of some writings by the Witch-king or Sauron. War in the North covers this a bit, but Im unsure how true this follows the entire cannon. For my two profiles for the Blue Wizards I included Fortify Spirit and Banish because no one has them yet. I imagine we will see a new Necromancer profile with Curse, although I wouldnt rule out Smaug having it as he can do a little magic himself. Banish I just see as a spell for Galadriel. It would just fit her War-Aspect form perfectly I think. Fortify Spirit seems very Gandalf-ish but as he already has Strengthen will I doubt we will see him with it.

Author:	Tezzy [ Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Unused Spells So Far
JamesR wrote: I don't think there are just human sorcerers walking about in Middle-Earth, from what I understand, if any magic were to be learned by a mere man it would be as a result of some writings by the Witch-king or Sauron. I agree that they do not just come out of nowhere. As far as I know, the only mentioned humans capable of spellcraft are 1. The Mouth of Sauron and 2. some of the Ringwraiths. It is a curious case, the Ringwraiths, in that it is specifically mentioned that some of the Nazgul became spellcasters before their bodies faded. To me, this means that perhaps using some sort of other evil artifact, writings, or perhaps contact with the Nazgul themselves, it is possible for humans to learn magic. Perhaps a human necromancer would be one of these possibilities; a servant of Morgoth, but unaware of Sauron's existance as "The Necromancer" or even the existance of evil at Dol Guldur. Is it unreasonable for followers of Morgoth from, say, the South or West to have pursued the dark spellcraft of their god?

Author:	Goldman25 [ Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:55 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Unused Spells So Far
JamesR wrote: I don't think there are just human sorcerers walking about in Middle-Earth, from what I understand, if any magic were to be learned by a mere man it would be as a result of some writings by the Witch-king or Sauron. I'm pretty sure that's how it worked in Tolkien's writings, or was implied to work. And if they learned all their magic from Sauron and the Nazgul (great band name, btw), they wouldn't know the unused spells, since Sauron and the Nazgul didn't know them to teach.

Author:	Tezzy [ Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:22 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Unused Spells So Far
"they wouldn't know the unused spells, since Sauron and the Nazgul didn't know them to teach." While this does make sense thematically, game wise evil spell users commonly use spells Sauron and the Ringwraiths have no access to. Fury, Bladewrath, Tremor, Shatter , Fireburst, etc.

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Author:	VandalCabbage [ Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Unused Spells So Far
Fury is less magic and more simply whipping up your soldiers into a berserk mood. This is actually a real life thing with Vikings, being able to basically ignore wounds. Fireburst and such shouldn't even be spells, since in LOTR dark magic revolves around fear and curses neither or which provides fireballs. Magic in Lotr isn't really available to men, aside from those who like the nazgul and the mouth are basically zombies. The elf magic seems to be some sort of technology (elven cloaks = camoflauge coats, lembas = army rations, the girdle of Melian = forcefields). If you can find "The Science of Middle-Earth" by Henry Gee it has some good stuff to say on the subject. As for the spells themselves I really like them, subtle yet powerful. Curse especially is very nice.

Author:	GWvsJohn [ Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:19 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Unused Spells So Far
VandalCabbage wrote: Fury is less magic and more simply whipping up your soldiers into a berserk mood. This is actually a real life thing with Vikings, being able to basically ignore wounds. Fireburst and such shouldn't even be spells, since in LOTR dark magic revolves around fear and curses neither or which provides fireballs. Magic in Lotr isn't really available to men, aside from those who like the nazgul and the mouth are basically zombies. The elf magic seems to be some sort of technology (elven cloaks = camoflauge coats, lembas = army rations, the girdle of Melian = forcefields). If you can find "The Science of Middle-Earth" by Henry Gee it has some good stuff to say on the subject. As for the spells themselves I really like them, subtle yet powerful. Curse especially is very nice. I have to disagree about magic not being available to men. the White Council clearly, at the very least, entertained the possibility that the Necromancer was simply a human sorcerer. So, not only is it possible for mere men to use magic, it's possible for them to be quite proficient at it.

Author:	JamesR [ Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Unused Spells So Far
But it's said dismissively like he's a "conjurer of cheap tricks". Not like "oh no! This is serious".

Author:	Tezzy [ Mon Feb 10, 2014 5:49 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Unused Spells So Far
To JamesR, isn't that quote something Gandalf says, when he dismisses the idea that he is merely a conjuror of cheap tricks (which also offers the idea that humans can cast magic). Sure, you could argue he means that the magic of humans is terrible, but I think what GWvsJohn is saying is that if this suspect from Dol Guldur is called "The Necromancer," shouldn't that imply that there are some who actually consider necromancy to be a real magic art? If Necromancy did not exist or was a magic out of reach of humans, they would have never assumed it to be a mere man. And to VandalCabbage, the Witch King can shatter metal and wood with his screams. Being able to rupture Gandalf's Staff of Power is nothing like the dark magic you are thinking about. Just as well, Elven magic is not only limited to enchanting. Don't you remember when Elrond used magic at Bruinen to attack the Nazgul? Galadriel similarly was known as a powerful magic user.

Author:	JamesR [ Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:07 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Unused Spells So Far
You're correct on the quote. What I'm pointing out is the white counsel dismissed the name 'necromancer' as there was no such power and said basically it's just a man whose learned some cheap tricks and has ppl believing he's more than he is. The name necromamcer was given by woodsmen, hardly qualified to judge magic.

Author:	VandalCabbage [ Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Unused Spells So Far
The witch-king only shatters Gandalf's staff in the films. Good scene though. And how is his speech at the gate not a curse? And they still need the battering ram to knock it down if I recall. Hardly world of warcraft type fireballs like Kardush is sporting. The elves actually say to the Hobbits in lothlorien that they do not understand what the hobbits mean by "magic". The water only looks like horses cause Gandalf spruced it up (doesn't he say something like that? forgot when). Other wise it would have been just regular water, like if a secret dam had been opened all at once. Galadriel's "power" seems mainly to be protecting her forest and chucking down the wall of Dol Guldur. The former could mean any number of things, from green forestry to forcefields, while the latter could be accomplished via explosives. Sufficently advanced technology is comparable to magic. You don't think the elves would go four thousand years and not invent something useful do you? As for the maiar, they quite clearly have supernatural abilities of some kind that neither man nor elves possess.

Author:	Tezzy [ Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:43 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Unused Spells So Far
Ah sorry. I was under the interpretation that the Witch King did break weapons and armor in the novels, I don't remember the exact context though... I am definitely no Tolkien authority! However, looking into it it also seems the Witch King had the power to summon Barrow-wights, which would cross into the power of necromancy... Additionally, I'm not sure how well you regard Tolkien Gateway but here it notes Elrond to be a "wise wizard." http://www.tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Elro ... and_traits And again here it mentions how the river was under Elrond's command: http://www.tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Many_Meetings I guess I did not know the idea of magic spells being used by mortals was in such contention! If you have any other points or counters to my arguments, please reply. This is a fun learning experiences haha.

Author:	JamesR [ Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:05 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Unused Spells So Far
Barrow Wights are made through killing with enchanted weapons ie a morgul blade. When Aragorn says of Frodo in the fellowship "he will soon become a wraith like them" he doesn't mean Frodo will become a Nazgul but that he'll be a wraith/spirit. Frodo would have become a barrow wight under the Witch-King's power as the Morgul blade would cause him to be enslaved to the WK. You're correct on Elrond being able to control the river but you have to remember that in LOTR, especially as Tolkien wrote it, magic is very subtle. It's not Jedi-esque or like Harry Potter where it's flashy and dramatic.

Author:	Beowulf03809 [ Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Unused Spells So Far
And even the films take it to "the next level" from the books. So when the game uses the films as a baseline and goes "to the next level" we start to get very flamboyant magic that is nothing like we would expect from the writing in many cases.

Author:	Zarathustra Suicuine [ Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Unused Spells So Far
Heart of a Tardis perhaps? Can't remeber where I read it, may have been tv tropes, but someone said the best way to imagine pre fall Numenor was rather then medieval, but in fact as essentially 1920's/30's art deco with a heavy dose of Babylon, Assyria, Persia and a bit of steampunk

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Author:	Tezzy [ Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Unused Spells So Far
JamesR wrote: Barrow Wights are made through killing with enchanted weapons ie a morgul blade. When Aragorn says of Frodo in the fellowship "he will soon become a wraith like them" he doesn't mean Frodo will become a Nazgul but that he'll be a wraith/spirit. Frodo would have become a barrow wight under the Witch-King's power as the Morgul blade would cause him to be enslaved to the WK. You're correct on Elrond being able to control the river but you have to remember that in LOTR, especially as Tolkien wrote it, magic is very subtle. It's not Jedi-esque or like Harry Potter where it's flashy and dramatic. Are you sure, though? Again, I am no expert I just love reading Tolkien Gateway, but here are the articles on Barrow-wights and Wraiths: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Barrow-wights http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Wraiths There seems to be some difference between the two? And in another example, the wiki makes a point to mention that the Barrow-wights can use magic.

Author:	VandalCabbage [ Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Unused Spells So Far
It seems the passage implies that Frodo would become a lesser wraith but not a barrow-wight, more of a species differentiation than anything else. However, only the forces of evil ever try to use such hateful magic. Just because Elrond "caused the waters to rise" doesn't necessarily mean he invoked some spell to do so. That Tolkien Gateway thing only said that he "looked" like an old wizard, which is entirely different to being one. The entire story is being written from a hobbit point of view where elves do things that can only be explained as magic to someone of Frodo's experience. Finally, the only real magic in the series is that used by Maiar or Sauron's servants imbued with Maiarish power (such as the Ringwraiths) who therefore have abilities as a result of being a totally different species. Of course, this is all just my interpretation of events.

Author:	GWvsJohn [ Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Unused Spells So Far
VandalCabbage wrote: It seems the passage implies that Frodo would become a lesser wraith but not a barrow-wight, more of a species differentiation than anything else. However, only the forces of evil ever try to use such hateful magic. Just because Elrond "caused the waters to rise" doesn't necessarily mean he invoked some spell to do so. That Tolkien Gateway thing only said that he "looked" like an old wizard, which is entirely different to being one. The entire story is being written from a hobbit point of view where elves do things that can only be explained as magic to someone of Frodo's experience. Finally, the only real magic in the series is that used by Maiar or Sauron's servants imbued with Maiarish power (such as the Ringwraiths) who therefore have abilities as a result of being a totally different species. Of course, this is all just my interpretation of events. What about Galadriel's mirror? That's pretty magic

Author:	VandalCabbage [ Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Unused Spells So Far
Ah you got me. I'm going to have to think about that one. Rip in the space-time continuum? Superpowerful computer able to calculate possible futures? That one's difficult.

Author:	Beowulf03809 [ Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Unused Spells So Far
Revelation! Galdriel's Mirror is Deep Thought And Frodo gazed in and saw the number 42 and was struck with terror...