Hi guys. Sorry for being away ... again
I think the profile is great, the equipment is perfect and I love the special rule.
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| "By the Book" Sindar http://wwww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=18108 |
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| Author: | whafrog [ Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | "By the Book" Sindar |
This is an other By the Book thread, which attempts to come up with profiles that more closely fit Tolkien's books. The intro thread is here: http://www.one-ring.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17568 Tolkien specified many different types of Elves, but for gaming purposes they can be divided into three main groups. This thread deals with Sindar Elves. These are Elves under the lordship of Thingol. He alone went to Aman, then returned to Middle Earth to bring his people over. However, he met and was enchanted by Melian the Maia. A great number of his people were loath to leave Middle Earth without him, and when they finally found him it was too late. However, under his and Melian's leadership they rose higher than their Sylvan kin. In the SBG game, these are the Grey Elves, of Doriath in the First Age, survivors of the destruction of Beleriand. They include many of the Galadhrim, and non-Noldorian residents of Rivendell and the Grey Havens. They also include many of the leaders of Sylvan elf groups. For example, Thranduil and Legolas of Mirkwood are Sindar elves. F.. S D A W C M W F Pts 4/3+ 3 3 1 1 5 - - - 7 points Each Sindar carries a hand weapon. Other equipment: Other equipment: trade hand weapon for elf bow, elf blade, shield, armour, spear...1 point Elf bow...2 points (edit: forgot elf blade) Special rules: Woodcraft: move through difficult woodland terrain with no penalty Archer phalanx: Sindar may shoot from behind two ranks of friendly models instead of just one. All models must be touching and be in a (relatively) straight line. |
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| Author: | hithero [ Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:21 am ] |
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Need to be F5 or will be slaughted by uruks due to S/D differences. |
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| Author: | MuslimRohirrim [ Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:03 pm ] |
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I think normal warriors should have access to elven cloaks. they were wearing it when they first met the fellowship in Lothorien. |
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| Author: | whafrog [ Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:17 pm ] |
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hithero wrote: Need to be F5 or will be slaughted by uruks due to S/D differences.
We haven't refactored Uruks yet, but they won't be like that. Uruk hai were just able to compete with Men. The original thread (link at top) has some basics. |
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| Author: | MuslimRohirrim [ Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:19 pm ] |
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though I am not with giving Uruks less strength as it was explicitly mentioned in the books that they are of great strength, but still don't see S4 for the elves anyway. |
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| Author: | Gothmog 3rd [ Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:58 pm ] |
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Hi guys. Sorry for being away ... again
I think the profile is great, the equipment is perfect and I love the special rule. |
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| Author: | whafrog [ Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:34 pm ] |
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Thanks. Edited profile...forgot elf blade. |
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| Author: | Brutoni [ Mon May 03, 2010 1:27 pm ] |
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Going to raise the same issues here as I did in other threads. There are very few warriors who were able to stand toe to toe with an elf and live to tell the tale. All of the warriors were mighty warriors of men, or at the very least Dunadain, Half-elf or mighty trolls. Having an elf with F4 is such a silly idea, they are expensive models at base and more often than not elves don't have the huge amount of armour that other races seem to have in SBG. So with S3 and D3 and a F4 they match up to around half the models available to play with now... Uruk Hai- F4 Dol Amroth- F4 Rangers of the North- F4 Elite guard of various types- F4 Dwarves- F4 Half Trolls- F4(or 5?) Trolls- F6-8 The light is really quite long and shows how many things could tear them apart. The SBG does not represent Tolkien's elves and everyone seems to follow this view quite happily for some silly reason. The elves in this game lean heavily towards Gamesworkshop's opinion of elves.... Fast and skilled with reasonable equipment. But weak and not tough. Tolkien's elves.... even at the end of the 3rd age were without doubt. Stronger, Faster, Tougher, Braver, More Intelligent and generally more capable than you average man in every single way. The only elves in the game that had this was the High elves until all these god forsaken expansions near the end of the 3rd rule set. |
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| Author: | Mouth-of-Sauron [ Mon May 03, 2010 4:07 pm ] |
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eehm well if the game would adapt fully to the "realistic" story. Then it was stated in one of the books that an elf warrior, could kill 3 orcs, in a row with ease... Imagine just how many orcs would every mordor player need to field...??? |
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| Author: | Brutoni [ Mon May 03, 2010 4:11 pm ] |
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Mouth-of-Sauron wrote: eehm well if the game would adapt fully to the "realistic" story.
Then it was stated in one of the books that an elf warrior, could kill 3 orcs, in a row with ease... Imagine just how many orcs would every mordor player need to field...??? It would be like the last alliance scene.... you'd need a row of orcs for initial contact just so you could die... and two in front to take arrow fire.... No I understand the game mechanics limit the effectiveness of elves. However I'm sure we can find a good compromise? |
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| Author: | MuslimRohirrim [ Mon May 03, 2010 5:22 pm ] |
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Brutoni wrote: No I understand the game mechanics limit the effectiveness of elves. However I'm sure we can find a good compromise?
I don't think there should be a problem as long as it doesn't hurt the game balance. we can't write a book and tolkien wasn't trying to balance a game, so we have to tread carefully when mapping the books to the game. I feel we're going in a direction of a wider scope that could require a change in game system mechanics, which I think was not in the initial scope of the project. |
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| Author: | Highlordell [ Mon May 03, 2010 5:36 pm ] |
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Quote: Having an elf with F4 is such a silly idea, they are expensive models at base and more often than not elves don't have the huge amount of armour that other races seem to have in SBG. So with S3 and D3 and a F4 they match up to around half the models available to play with now...
Uruk Hai- F4 Dol Amroth- F4 Rangers of the North- F4 Elite guard of various types- F4 Dwarves- F4 Half Trolls- F4(or 5?) Trolls- F6-8 The light is really quite long and shows how many things could tear them apart. Not sure whether you have noticed but the point of these threads is to change the profiles of all the races so that they more accurately represent Tolkien's descriptions, not just Elves. So, when this is finished, many of the unints you have listed may have been scaled down in power to keep the balance right and relect the Elves' superiority.  Sorry if that was a bit OTT
However, i do think F5 is nessecary but again i don't think they should be too similar to the other Elves. |
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| Author: | Highlordell [ Mon May 03, 2010 5:43 pm ] |
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Sorry guys but after re-reading the Sylvan Elves thread i think that this profile is great, and the F4 is perfectly acceptable. 
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| Author: | whafrog [ Mon May 03, 2010 6:18 pm ] |
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Brutoni wrote: Having an elf with F4 is such a silly idea, they are expensive models at base and more often than not elves don't have the huge amount of armour that other races seem to have in SBG. So with S3 and D3 and a F4 they match up to around half the models available to play with now...
I won't repeat what Highlordell said, just add to it a bit. The Fight score has no impact on the fight other than to break ties. It's also an indicator of what kind of things you can go up against. Giving elves F6 means 3 of them can take on a Cave Troll, for less than 1/2 the cost. It doesn't matter if you have F1 or F5, against a Cave Troll. In the refactored rules, F4 for Sindar would mean they would outclass most opponents anyway (including Uruk hai), and would beat or match most of their opponent's heroes. The actual value doesn't matter, just what they can lose to 16% of the time, tie with, or beat 16% of the time. |
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| Author: | Brutoni [ Mon May 03, 2010 8:02 pm ] |
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whafrog wrote: Brutoni wrote: Having an elf with F4 is such a silly idea, they are expensive models at base and more often than not elves don't have the huge amount of armour that other races seem to have in SBG. So with S3 and D3 and a F4 they match up to around half the models available to play with now... I won't repeat what Highlordell said, just add to it a bit. The Fight score has no impact on the fight other than to break ties. It's also an indicator of what kind of things you can go up against. Giving elves F6 means 3 of them can take on a Cave Troll, for less than 1/2 the cost. It doesn't matter if you have F1 or F5, against a Cave Troll. In the refactored rules, F4 for Sindar would mean they would outclass most opponents anyway (including Uruk hai), and would beat or match most of their opponent's heroes. The actual value doesn't matter, just what they can lose to 16% of the time, tie with, or beat 16% of the time. 3 High Elves will not stand a chance against a troll.... The troll has S6 so wounds on a 4+. The troll can have a chain. The troll has 3 wounds before you notice it's loss in killing power. It can throw stones. My girlfriend regularly fields trolls of all varieties and I can tell you that you need a multitude of High elves to kill a bog standard troll..... It's much better to shoot it to death, or just command it to walk somewhere more harmless. The Fight value can make a huge difference. In fact 1 higher fight gives you a much greater chance of winning the fight, it's almost as good as a +1 to hit on the dice roll, though not quite as good obviously. |
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| Author: | Highlordell [ Mon May 03, 2010 8:55 pm ] |
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Quote: 3 High Elves will not stand a chance against a troll.... The troll has S6 so wounds on a 4+. The troll can have a chain. The troll has 3 wounds before you notice it's loss in killing power. It can throw stones.
Yes, but the point whafrog is trying to make is, the fact it can wound on a 4+ doesn't mean anything if it looses the combat, and when you have 3 High Elves, they have equal the chance of winning the combat (same Fight Value and Attacks) but at half the cost. |
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| Author: | Brutoni [ Mon May 03, 2010 9:06 pm ] |
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Highlordell wrote: Quote: 3 High Elves will not stand a chance against a troll.... The troll has S6 so wounds on a 4+. The troll can have a chain. The troll has 3 wounds before you notice it's loss in killing power. It can throw stones. Yes, but the point whafrog is trying to make is, the fact it can wound on a 4+ doesn't mean anything if it looses the combat, and when you have 3 High Elves, they have equal the chance of winning the combat (same Fight Value and Attacks) but at half the cost. It is still not, in my humble opinion, a valid comparison. Viewing units in a vacuum rarely works. Yes they have an equal chance of winning the roll off but they don't have an equal chance of winning the engagement. They require many more rolls to wound. They cannot stand against some of the opponents a troll decimates (cavalry), they cannot batter down fortifications, they cannot attract fire. Additionally elves as I said, need more too wound. The troll requires less to wound. I'm afraid the 3 elves for half the points is because the troll has 3 more strength giving it a MASSIVE advantage in any fight. Plus it is a Monstrous creature and so benefits against a multitude of various other opponents. If you can see where I am coming from? |
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| Author: | whafrog [ Mon May 03, 2010 10:07 pm ] |
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I could have made my post longer and included all the caveats about a troll's greater S and that it doesn't lose attacks when it takes a wound, etc, but I figured that was obvious. I was hoping you'd get my point about the value of the Fight score, rather than be distracted by whether 3 elves could take on a cave troll. In effect the Fight score is entirely arbitrary, so saying "F4 is such a silly idea" is meaningless without considering the context within which the rule refactoring is being done. It's also difficult to come up with a point cost associated with it, because it's relative. |
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| Author: | Brutoni [ Mon May 03, 2010 10:13 pm ] |
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whafrog wrote: I could have made my post longer and included all the caveats about a troll's greater S and that it doesn't lose attacks when it takes a wound, etc, but I figured that was obvious. I was hoping you'd get my point about the value of the Fight score, rather than be distracted by whether 3 elves could take on a cave troll. In effect the Fight score is entirely arbitrary, so saying "F4 is such a silly idea" is meaningless without considering the context within which the rule refactoring is being done. It's also difficult to come up with a point cost associated with it, because it's relative.
Okay, these are all valid points and I probably should have noticed your point about the fight value of models. So in the re-do I have to ask, what are the average fight values of models. You see the reason I thought F5 would be minimum for an elf is that if you are making 4 the average value instead of 3... As your threads suggest you will have to do this with Fight, this would allow differentiation between militia and elite men. Moria Goblins and orcs etc. It would however require an elf to be fight 6, to stand where they are now. With more elite elves fight 7.... If you are going to lower fight scores (and therefore take into account F1 as not many models.... if any... have that value) then you might be able to get away with F4 on an elf? Either way, no elf... Even a Slyvan (sp?) should have fight less than an orc or goblin (I would go so far as to say that at minimum your least skilled elf should tie with an Uruk Hai) |
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| Author: | whafrog [ Mon May 03, 2010 11:16 pm ] |
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Quote: You see the reason I thought F5 would be minimum for an elf is that if you are making 4 the average value instead of 3... As your threads suggest you will have to do this with Fight, this would allow differentiation between militia and elite men. Ah, no, the change to "average" was only going to be to Strength and Defense, so an average man would be 3/4+ 4 4 1 1 3 instead of 3/4+ 3 3 1 1 3 Not that we couldn't change the average Fight as well, but everything has a ripple effect... At the top of each of these "by the book" threads is a link to the original thread in a different forum. I have a long (rough draft) post there with suggested base profiles, so you can see discussion starting points. Quote: Either way, no elf... Even a Slyvan (sp?) should have fight less than an orc or goblin (I would go so far as to say that at minimum your least skilled elf should tie with an Uruk Hai)
I would agree, but thought it would give a tactical flavour. And I needed some way to make up for Unerring Shot, as I really like that special rule
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