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"By the Book" Sylvan Elves
http://wwww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=18107		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  whafrog [ Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:48 pm ]
Post subject:  "By the Book" Sylvan Elves
This is an other By the Book thread, which attempts to come up with profiles that more closely fit Tolkien's books. The intro thread is here: http://www.one-ring.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17568

Tolkien specified many different types of Elves, but for gaming purposes they can be divided into three main groups. This thread deals with Sylvan Elves.

These are Elves whose forefathers never went to Aman or saw the light of the Two Trees. These have lived in Middle Earth since the beginning. They tended to stay in wooded or forested regions and kept to themselves, using evasion and guerilla tactics to deal with invaders. They include the Wood Elves of Greenwood/Mirkwood and Lothlorien. Their martial prowess comes more from their bows than their sword play.

F.. S D A W C M W F Pts
2/3+ 3 3 1 1 4 - - - 7 points

Their profile includes a short elf bow (as Dwarf bow), but they are otherwise considered to be unarmed. They may trade their bow for a hand weapon at no extra cost. They wear no armour.
Other equipment:
Upgrade short bow to elf bow, hand weapon, Wood Elf spear...1 point
Throwing daggers, elf bow...2 points

Special rules:
Woodcraft: move through difficult woodland terrain with no penalty
Stealth: Sylvan elves are as if wearing an elf cloak when in, or at least partially obscured by, wooded terrain or foliage.
Unerring shot: a Sylvan Elf is able to ignore one "in-the-way" roll when shooting with a bow. This includes shooting into combat, if the enemy model is at least partly visible and there are no other "in-the-way" rolls to be made between the shooter and the target.
Author:  TheFlameoftheWest [ Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:37 am ]
Post subject: 
I would replace the 'Stealth' rule and allow Sylvan elves to purchase Elven Cloaks as equipment.
Author:  whafrog [ Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:29 am ]
Post subject: 
But Woses get it for free...
Author:  ncea [ Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:56 am ]
Post subject: 
whats the point of being able to have a dwarf bow and a elf bow?
Author:  whafrog [ Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:21 pm ]
Post subject: 
Flavour and cost. Tolkien mentions Legolas' small bow that was the default for Wood Elves...if you're mostly in the woods, everything is short range anyway due to LOS issues.

It was also an attempt to keep the cost down.
Author:  spuds4ever [ Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:17 pm ]
Post subject: 
I think they should still have C5 as they are still elves.
Author:  TheFlameoftheWest [ Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:57 am ]
Post subject: 
I didn't know the Woses have that special rule. I agree the Sylvan Elves should have it too then.
Author:  Aragilar [ Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:08 am ]
Post subject: 
They shouldn't get Elven Cloaks, only Elves from Lothlorien are mentioned having them, and why would Legolas be given one if he already had one?

One thing that is mentioned in the Silmarillion is their use of poisoned arrows, perhaps they should also have the poisoned arrows rule from the haradrim.
Author:  emperor_thompson [ Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:58 am ]
Post subject: 
I realise that you want to keep points down, but 2 fighting skill seems very low. I would recommend increasing this to at least 3, then increasing courage to 5, for a 1 point increase in cost.

Reguarding the "Unerring Shot" rule - does this mean the elves can shoot into friendly combats? If this is the case, you may need to increase their cost, as that ability is quite deadly.
Author:  hithero [ Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:06 am ]
Post subject: 
At first I thought WTF, but after careful reading I think the profile is pretty good. The Stealth rule is better than giving elven cloaks and F2 AND unarmed will make sure you do use them as guerilla's, don't think they should be able to shoot into combat though, especially as they are already getting all their special skills free and combined with a 3+ S3 bow = very deadly.
Author:  MuslimRohirrim [ Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
I third hithero and emperor_thompson, unerring shot is overpowering them.

elven cloak works for all LOS blocking not only trees as in stealth rule here. may be Legolas was given an elven cloak because where he was going there were no trees or foliage. so legolas should also have elven cloak in his optional wargear.

May be it's not the right time or thread, but speaking of cloaks and only for possible future usage, the hobbits wore dark cloaks that made them hard to be seen in the dark so may be this could be used in their profile if we'd ever come to work on them.
good ideas often get lost like good pens :-D , so I thought I'd make a note of it here.
Author:  whafrog [ Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
hithero wrote:
At first I thought WTF, but after careful reading I think the profile is pretty good. The Stealth rule is better than giving elven cloaks and F2 AND unarmed will make sure you do use them as guerilla's, don't think they should be able to shoot into combat though, especially as they are already getting all their special skills free and combined with a 3+ S3 bow = very deadly.


Very deadly, but they'll still have a 33% bow limit, and the unerring shot only applies to bows, not throwing daggers. Not to mention Woses get a +1 to wound for "free"...I figured unerring shot might accomplish something similar.
Author:  Erurainon the Trombonist [ Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
I think Stealth is better than Elven cloaks as it keeps with theme and it is good representation of how the Sylvan Elves are used to fighting and hunting in forests and rough terrain.
Author:  Gothmog 3rd [ Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hi guys.

I must say that I too am quite insecure about cost/efficiency ratio here, but I guess it could be playtested against Rohan, Goblins or a pure Men faction as these are already pretty much completed. Other than that, great profile and great rules.
Author:  whafrog [ Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:27 pm ]
Post subject: 
Gothmog 3rd wrote:
I must say that I too am quite insecure about cost/efficiency ratio here


Do you mean too potent? I'm starting to agree with everyone about unerring shot, it shouldn't be used for combat. It's enough that a bunch of Orcs behind a wall actually aren't...

If they have F3 or higher they lose their guerilla flavour, and same with C5. Still, I could see giving them C5 normally, and a special rule to give -1C when Broken...but that's just one more special rule...

I've left out Elf blade for their equipment options, meaning they have no 2H abilities.

BTW, Legolas was a Sindar. After the First Age, many of the refugees from Doriath went out and took over the leadership of Sylvan elf groups. So Mirkwood would include Sindar as well as Sylvan elves. This might offset some of the melee deficiencies.
Author:  General Elessar [ Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
Very interesting rules, I don't like the Fight 2 much but I can see it'll work as a guerilla force.
Author:  MuslimRohirrim [ Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:37 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'd stick with the 2F and 4C for the flavor and diversity.

how about if they can roll on a 3+ for one in the way rolls instead of 4+.
Author:  Brutoni [ Mon May 03, 2010 1:19 pm ]
Post subject: 
This is not by Tolkien's books. I'm sorry but anyone who reads them is well aware that even elves that had not been graced with looking and living in Valinor with the gods had courage, strength, speed and resilience beyond that of even the mightiest men in the 3rd age.

Elves do not tire like humans do, the do not fear evil in the same way men do. Additionally they are more skilled in combat be it sword play or bowman ship than a human is ever likely to be.

This is why they are almost impossible to represent in the game because they are so capable but to make them that capable they would have to have similar stats to Rangers of the North.

There is simply no way an elf should have a fight value of a goblin. Or a courage value of 4. Especially with the HUGE amount of men, dwarves and orc and goblins with new special rules that effectively make them as capable as an elf.

I mean come on... 7 points for F2, D3 and C4? The up side is that they get special bow rules but with a range of 18" they will be caught quite easily by the large amount of evil models that now move really quite quickly.

Sorry, I really don't think these work out well.
Author:  whafrog [ Mon May 03, 2010 2:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
Brutoni wrote:
There is simply no way an elf should have a fight value of a goblin. Or a courage value of 4. Especially with the HUGE amount of men, dwarves and orc and goblins with new special rules that effectively make them as capable as an elf.


Yeah, typing that "F2" was painful. It was done for two reasons: keep the point costs down; and force a certain tactical flavour. If you have any other workable ideas I'm all ears.
Author:  Brutoni [ Mon May 03, 2010 3:10 pm ]
Post subject: 
whafrog wrote:
Brutoni wrote:
There is simply no way an elf should have a fight value of a goblin. Or a courage value of 4. Especially with the HUGE amount of men, dwarves and orc and goblins with new special rules that effectively make them as capable as an elf.


Yeah, typing that "F2" was painful. It was done for two reasons: keep the point costs down; and force a certain tactical flavour. If you have any other workable ideas I'm all ears.


Yeah I can see your problem. How to show the different sub sets of elves without just resorting to them having different equipment.

Perhaps going along the lines of different special rules is the way to go though?

I've replied to the Noldor, I think if I can sort out how I would consider how they should be represented I could work off them to create good templates for the other elves....

give me some time to think about it and I'll get back to you.
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