The One Ring :: View topic - "By the Book" Rohan

Note that I said GW's Faramir, I don't nececarily agree that GW made Faramir correct.

Actually I think giving Éomer an additional Will and Fate would make for a solid middle ground profile. Perhaps giving a him a special rule about loosing his head (not literally) if Éowyn/Theoden dies. Maybe consider an additional rule to make him even better on horse, like always getting the extra attack bonus as if he were charging (not knock down though).

I think a special rule if Eowyn/Theoden dies is okay. GW's is basically the same as the twins, which I like for them, but not for Eomer. I think that rule for him should focus more on his sudden leadership abilities (and rashness), maybe adding an attack, acting as a banner or increasing his own and/or his follower's fight score at the expense of their defense, etc. Maybe he can spent Fate to do heroic actions, risking death going all out. Then we could create a higher level "King" profile that includes these leadership abilities without the negative side, and still keep it under our Faramir profile.

Then we could create a higher level "King" profile that includes these leadership abilities without the negative side, and still keep it under our Faramir profile.

I don't think he needs 3W and 3F, that puts him in Aragorn territory.

I do think it should also effect other warriors around him (shouting 'Death!' on your own isn't nearly as fun

), which should, IMHO, also have a positive and a negative side. maybe a banner like effect, with the addition all rohirrim within 6" must charge if eomer charges?

EDIT - also think we should balance negative and positive out a bit. encouraging the player to get eowyn killed as soon as possible so eomer goes crazy is, again IMHO, not what the rule should do.

As he is the king of rohan by than, I think its quite ok to have him in 'aragorn territory'. He shouldn't be equilly godlike, but he should be a powerfull hero, which usually have 3m/3w/3f.

Yep, that's why I said "Faramir in the book"

Gamling will certainly not have the option of the Royal Banner as Gamling in the books are no more than an old armoured man, who knows the language and history of the Dunlendings, and is set to lead 1000 old men and boys in the defence of Helm's Dike. It should also be noted that his fate is uncertain.
Hama would be the most fitting person to carrie the banner but he is never mentioned to do this and therefore my suggestions don't include this banner at all.

We can probably find out what to do with the beutiful minature though

Not sure why he doesn't have a hand weapon, since a sword is free...if you're thinking that's how he starts out when we meet him in the book, I'd say that's scenario-specific, not applicable to his general profile.

I stumbled upon a character called Déorwine. I haven't yet checked if he is real but he presumably leads a small group of Rohirrim at the Pellinor fields. He dies infront of the walls.

With that he seized a great horn from Guthláf his banner-bearer, and he blew such a blast upon it that it burst asunder.

nice one. he was chief of the riders and body guard of the king.

Also Guthláf, he was the bearer of the king of Rohan banner who also died beside his dying king, then another rider took the banner and kept it raised.

from ROTK book wrote:

With that he seized a great horn from Guthláf his banner-bearer, and he blew such a blast upon it that it burst asunder.

He could easily used instead of Gamling banner model and more convenient than Hama.

Dúnhere: lord of Harrowdale valley west in the White Mauntains, and nephew of Erkenbrand.

Herefara: one of the leaders who gathered Rohirrim and joined the muster of of rohan marching to Pelennor Fields.

Other named captains and warriors that were mentioned in the the song of the "Mounds of Mundburg" who fought and died in Pelennor Fields:

Harding, Herefara, Herubrand, Horn, Fastred

He could easily used instead of Gamling banner model and more convenient than Hama.

MuslimRohirrim wrote:

nice one. he was chief of the riders and body guard of the king.

So he probaly replacedd Hama then?.

could be, but it was not explicitly mentioned. it was only mentioned that "seven of the king's knights had fallen there, and Déorwine their chief was among them." besides their dead king in Pelennor Fields and they were given a special attention so the Rohirrim "laid them apart from their foes and the fell beast and set spears about them".

@gothmog: Nice work, thanks! Just a point quibble: I recall someone saying Theoden's stats were broken due to a typo and have never been fixed. If you compare his raw GW stat line with a basic captain of Rohan (take away the captain's armour for 5 points), the difference is this: +1Fight, -1 Will, +1 Fate, +20 points. So IMHO a basic GW Theoden should cost 40-45 points (the only difference pointwise being the +1 Fight). If we say 45 points...
You've added 2 points of Will: 10 points
Special rule, Vulnerable to Magic: -5 points? This takes away his potential for Courage boosts and Standfast, but if there are no magic users in the enemy army it doesn't come into play.
Special rule, Forth Eorlingas: +5 points? If you compare this with Erkenbrand's rule I think it could have greater impact, yet Erkenbrand's rule appears to be free, or 5 points if his +1 Fight over a basic captain isn't factored.
Total: 45 + 10 - 5 + 5: 55 points, not 60.

Author:	whafrog [ Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:33 pm ]
Post subject:
Gothmog 3rd wrote: Note that I said GW's Faramir, I don't nececarily agree that GW made Faramir correct. Yep, that's why I said "Faramir in the book" Quote: Actually I think giving Éomer an additional Will and Fate would make for a solid middle ground profile. Perhaps giving a him a special rule about loosing his head (not literally) if Éowyn/Theoden dies. Maybe consider an additional rule to make him even better on horse, like always getting the extra attack bonus as if he were charging (not knock down though). I think a special rule if Eowyn/Theoden dies is okay. GW's is basically the same as the twins, which I like for them, but not for Eomer. I think that rule for him should focus more on his sudden leadership abilities (and rashness), maybe adding an attack, acting as a banner or increasing his own and/or his follower's fight score at the expense of their defense, etc. Maybe he can spent Fate to do heroic actions, risking death going all out. Then we could create a higher level "King" profile that includes these leadership abilities without the negative side, and still keep it under our Faramir profile. I don't think he needs 3W and 3F, that puts him in Aragorn territory.

Author:	Phantom_Lord [ Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:48 pm ]
Post subject:
whafrog wrote: I think a special rule if Eowyn/Theoden dies is okay. GW's is basically the same as the twins, which I like for them, but not for Eomer. I think that rule for him should focus more on his sudden leadership abilities (and rashness), maybe adding an attack, acting as a banner or increasing his own and/or his follower's fight score at the expense of their defense, etc. Maybe he can spent Fate to do heroic actions, risking death going all out. Then we could create a higher level "King" profile that includes these leadership abilities without the negative side, and still keep it under our Faramir profile. I personally really like the using fate as might idea. it really has the right flavor, something like him shouting 'Death!' and crashing headlong in the enemy. I do think it should also effect other warriors around him (shouting 'Death!' on your own isn't nearly as fun ), which should, IMHO, also have a positive and a negative side. maybe a banner like effect, with the addition all rohirrim within 6" must charge if eomer charges? EDIT - also think we should balance negative and positive out a bit. encouraging the player to get eowyn killed as soon as possible so eomer goes crazy is, again IMHO, not what the rule should do. whafrog wrote: Then we could create a higher level "King" profile that includes these leadership abilities without the negative side, and still keep it under our Faramir profile. I don't think he needs 3W and 3F, that puts him in Aragorn territory. As he is the king of rohan by than, I think its quite ok to have him in 'aragorn territory'. He shouldn't be equilly godlike, but he should be a powerfull hero, which usually have 3m/3w/3f. just my 2 cents though

Author:	whafrog [ Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:40 pm ]
Post subject:
Phantom_Lord wrote: I do think it should also effect other warriors around him (shouting 'Death!' on your own isn't nearly as fun ), which should, IMHO, also have a positive and a negative side. maybe a banner like effect, with the addition all rohirrim within 6" must charge if eomer charges? EDIT - also think we should balance negative and positive out a bit. encouraging the player to get eowyn killed as soon as possible so eomer goes crazy is, again IMHO, not what the rule should do. Good points Quote: As he is the king of rohan by than, I think its quite ok to have him in 'aragorn territory'. He shouldn't be equilly godlike, but he should be a powerfull hero, which usually have 3m/3w/3f. Being king doesn't make this happen. Aragorn has 60+ years of experience on Eomer, that's the difference. Plus he shouldn't end up better than Faramir, or Eowyn wouldn't have fallen for him Besides, the great thing about Eomer is he is usable in smaller armies. I wouldn't have a problem boosting his attacks, and maybe fate to 3 each, but that's 15 points right there. Add in special rules, and he's almost out of range for a < 500 point army.

Author:	Gothmog 3rd [ Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:41 pm ]
Post subject:
whafrog wrote: Yep, that's why I said "Faramir in the book" I just tried to post a suggestion for his rule, but I couldn't decide what to include and how to prevent Éowyn's death being a possitiv thing. I am seriously stuck. We could of course make the rule really crazy and say that both Theoden and Éowyn must die?. This would allow for a bigger rule as it would probably only come into effect in 1000p + games.

Author:	TheFlameoftheWest [ Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:51 am ]
Post subject:
I like where y'all are going with Rohan, but be careful of adding too many special rules. I can't wait to see a final draft PDF! Are you using Grimbold and Eomer's new profiles or creating your own? I just saw this month's White Dwarf for the first time today and liked GW's profiles. Personally I think Theoden is now the only Rohan hero that needs revamping and this thread could perhaps focus on Theoden King and adjusting Rohan horses...

The One Ring http://wwww.one-ring.co.uk/

"By the Book" Rohan http://wwww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=17695	Page 1 of 5

Author:	whafrog [ Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:26 am ]
Post subject:
I think everybody agrees about Theoden. I think most of your questions are answered in previous posts in this thread (it's a long one, I know). Personally I think GW's new Eomer profile is overkill. It has nothing to do with the books, and everything to do with people wanting a Rohan uber-hero to fill some arbitrary gap or because he's their favorite character.

Author:	emperor_thompson [ Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:31 am ]
Post subject:
I agree with whafrog on this. Eomer did need to be revisited, but I think he only needed a special rule or something just to give him some identity. Of course, 3A 3W 3M/W/F heroes sell better, so GW recent release is not surprising. Of course, that is a different matter entirely. As far as the By-the-book Eomer is concerned, perhaps it would be best not to give him a rule relating to Eomer/Eowyn's death. Eomer's loyalty lies with the people of Rohan, and he continued to fight to protect them even when in exile. Perhaps you could reflect this by letting him spend fate (or will) as might, as has been suggested. The idea would be to reflect his determination to protect Rohan, risking his life in the process. However, if you do this it may be better to keep him with 2 fate (or will, depending on choice), just so he doesn't have too much "might". As for special rules in general - I would advise including them only when absolutely necessary. Don't make a habit of giving every hero special rules, or you will have a hard time coming up with unique special rules later which work well. Gamling, for instance, may not need any if you allow him the option of the Royal Standard of Rohan (I'm not sure whether this would strictly follow the book or not, but it is a beautiful model). Finally, it is important to keep in mind that if you make special rules more effective against some races than others balancing issues may come into play. Perhaps this sort of thing could be introduced into the game in specific scenarios.

Author:	Gothmog 3rd [ Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:56 am ]
Post subject:
Some good points have been made in this "little" Éomer discussion. in total it seems to me that Éomer should keep his 2 attacks and wound. However he needs one or even two special rules to represent both his loyalty to Rohan and his headless behaviour following the death of his uncle and sister. The first one could be taken care of by simply increasing his courage to 6. If we were to let him expand Will or Fate as Might I suggest that this ability would need a trigger, such as Éowyn's death, or we could drop the trigger thing and reduce his Might to 2. Here is my Final Draft for Théoden: Théoden, King of Rohan --------------------------------------------------------- F S D A W C M/W/F 60 points 5/- 4 4 2 2 5 2/ 2/ 2 King Théoden carries a sword (hand weapon). He may purchase additional equipment for the following point costs: Heavy Armour ….................. 10 points Shield …............................... 5 points Horse ….............................. 10 points Armoured Horse …............... 15 points Special Rules: Expert Rider, Horse of Rohan Vulnerable to Magic: Whenever Théoden tries to resist a spell, he must spend two Will points even if the player controlling him only wishes to expand one. If Théoden only has one point of Will left he may not try to resist spells. Forth Eorlingas: A single time during a battle, Théoden may make a special Heroic Move. This special Heroic Move works exactly as a normal Heroic Move exept that it automaticly moves before any other Heroic Moves and has a Range of 12" both when determining who are allowed to move with him and how far away from Théoden they may end their move. Warriors and Heroes of Rohan are the only ones who are allowed to follow Théoden when he makes this move. EDIT: Gamling will certainly not have the option of the Royal Banner as Gamling in the books are no more than an old armoured man, who knows the language and history of the Dunlendings, and is set to lead 1000 old men and boys in the defence of Helm's Dike. It should also be noted that his fate is uncertain. Hama would be the most fitting person to carrie the banner but he is never mentioned to do this and therefore my suggestions don't include this banner at all. We can probably find out what to do with the beutiful minature though Also, special rules and wierd value combinations (such as lower Fight for old people) are the two things that distinguish different characters from each other. For example, in the current SBG game, Gorbag and Grishnach are being portrayed as equals, whilst I think Gorbag was mostly a regular Orc Captain (GW has represented this nicely) but I assuemed Grishnach to be one of Sauron's most valued orcs as he was set second in comand to a Ringwraith on a task as important as fetching the One Ring. You make a good point anyway, we might run the risk of becoming the new GW when it comes to outuber our own sepcial rules Let's just hope that doesn't happen.

Author:	whafrog [ Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:01 pm ]
Post subject:
@emperor_thompson: agreed, nice post. I've been thinking that the Theoden/Eowyn death special rule is way too specific and tied to one scenario. I don't think it's necessary at all, otherwise we'd need the same rule for every combination of "close" people. Wouldn't Aragorn go nuts if Arwen was killed? What about Elrond and Arwen, or his sons? Galadriel and Celeborn? We only saw Eomer flip out because that's how the story went, but the reason he flips out could apply to anyone. I like that rule for the Twins, but they have to be fielded together, so the risk/reward is always there. I like your thinking on the reason he could use Fate for heroic actions. I wouldn't include Will, because I don't find it's used a lot. Maybe I play differently, but most of my games are under 500 points, and most heroes end the game with their Will intact, so it would be a real freebie for Eomer. Fate is much more risky. I would also limit it to heroic actions, not as a general Might store. That encourages dynamism in his actions. I also agree about the danger of too many special rules. I would prefer when possible to use existing special rules, or versions of them (eg: Horse of Rohan is essentially the Poison Blades rule + Loose Mounts). I think most special rules should be subtle and "global", that is, applicable in most contexts. @gothmog: Nice work, thanks! Just a point quibble: I recall someone saying Theoden's stats were broken due to a typo and have never been fixed. If you compare his raw GW stat line with a basic captain of Rohan (take away the captain's armour for 5 points), the difference is this: +1Fight, -1 Will, +1 Fate, +20 points. So IMHO a basic GW Theoden should cost 40-45 points (the only difference pointwise being the +1 Fight). If we say 45 points... You've added 2 points of Will: 10 points Special rule, Vulnerable to Magic: -5 points? This takes away his potential for Courage boosts and Standfast, but if there are no magic users in the enemy army it doesn't come into play. Special rule, Forth Eorlingas: +5 points? If you compare this with Erkenbrand's rule I think it could have greater impact, yet Erkenbrand's rule appears to be free, or 5 points if his +1 Fight over a basic captain isn't factored. Total: 45 + 10 - 5 + 5: 55 points, not 60. Not sure why he doesn't have a hand weapon, since a sword is free...if you're thinking that's how he starts out when we meet him in the book, I'd say that's scenario-specific, not applicable to his general profile.

Author:	whafrog [ Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:
Gothmog 3rd wrote: Gamling will certainly not have the option of the Royal Banner as Gamling in the books are no more than an old armoured man, who knows the language and history of the Dunlendings, and is set to lead 1000 old men and boys in the defence of Helm's Dike. It should also be noted that his fate is uncertain. Hama would be the most fitting person to carrie the banner but he is never mentioned to do this and therefore my suggestions don't include this banner at all. We can probably find out what to do with the beutiful minature though It's not mentioned, but it's not not mentioned I agree if anyone carried a banner it was Hama. So maybe call it Hama's banner. Should it have the same stats? Since it's not mentioned it wouldn't have been too special, but perhaps giving it double the normal range wouldn't be too bad.

Author:	Gothmog 3rd [ Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:20 pm ]
Post subject:
whafrog wrote: Not sure why he doesn't have a hand weapon, since a sword is free...if you're thinking that's how he starts out when we meet him in the book, I'd say that's scenario-specific, not applicable to his general profile. That's exaclty why. I'll edit him right away. I stumbled upon a character called Déorwine. I haven't yet checked if he is real but he presumably leads a small group of Rohirrim at the Pellinor fields. He dies infront of the walls. I agree with you on the banner effect. It also fit quite well, as Gamling is never mounted in the books, we can basicly switch their minatures?

Author:	MuslimRohirrim [ Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:48 pm ]
Post subject:
Gothmog 3rd wrote: I stumbled upon a character called Déorwine. I haven't yet checked if he is real but he presumably leads a small group of Rohirrim at the Pellinor fields. He dies infront of the walls. nice one. he was chief of the riders and body guard of the king. Also Guthláf, he was the bearer of the king of Rohan banner who also died beside his dying king, then another rider took the banner and kept it raised. from ROTK book wrote: With that he seized a great horn from Guthláf his banner-bearer, and he blew such a blast upon it that it burst asunder. He could easily used instead of Gamling banner model and more convenient than Hama. And among some others: Dúnhere: lord of the Misty Mountains Harrowdale valley and nephew of Erkenbrand. Herefara: one of the leaders who gathered Rohirrim and joined the muster of of rohan marching to Pelennor Fields. Other named captains and warriors that were mentioned in the the song of the "Mounds of Mundburg" who fought and died in Pelennor Fields: Harding, Herefara, Herubrand, Horn, Fastred I am not sure if all can be presented in the game, but I just posting them for the record and may be for future work. more info could be found in adra site.

Author:	Gothmog 3rd [ Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:39 pm ]
Post subject:
MuslimRohirrim wrote: nice one. he was chief of the riders and body guard of the king. So he probaly replacedd Hama then?. Quote: Also Guthláf, he was the bearer of the king of Rohan banner who also died beside his dying king, then another rider took the banner and kept it raised. from ROTK book wrote: With that he seized a great horn from Guthláf his banner-bearer, and he blew such a blast upon it that it burst asunder. He could easily used instead of Gamling banner model and more convenient than Hama. Great idea, and nice find. Quote: Dúnhere: lord of Harrowdale valley west in the White Mauntains, and nephew of Erkenbrand. Herefara: one of the leaders who gathered Rohirrim and joined the muster of of rohan marching to Pelennor Fields. Again, nice find, but I don't see what else they can be used for exept named captains. We already have Elfhelm and maybe Grimbold for this. If we were to make these twe named captains as well, then Rohan wouldn't ever need generic ones. Ahhh, Too many heroes to choose from. Luxuary problem. We could of course just put a note under the generic captains where we recomand these names? Quote: Other named captains and warriors that were mentioned in the the song of the "Mounds of Mundburg" who fought and died in Pelennor Fields: Harding, Herefara, Herubrand, Horn, Fastred Too much ... to choose fr...om. Very nice finds MuslimRohirrim

Author:	whafrog [ Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:23 am ]
Post subject:
MuslimRohirrim wrote: He could easily used instead of Gamling banner model and more convenient than Hama. I agree, nice find, and after reading that passage just now I'm thinking it could have the same stats as Gamling's, though that might be overkill. Also, that's the spot where they are very clearly using lances, while the Haradrim aren't...they draw scimitars instead. So why GW gave the Haradrim "war spears" is beyond me.

Page 1 of 5	All times are UTC
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/

Author:	MuslimRohirrim [ Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:13 am ]
Post subject:
Gothmog 3rd wrote: MuslimRohirrim wrote: nice one. he was chief of the riders and body guard of the king. So he probaly replacedd Hama then?. could be, but it was not explicitly mentioned. it was only mentioned that "seven of the king's knights had fallen there, and Déorwine their chief was among them." besides their dead king in Pelennor Fields and they were given a special attention so the Rohirrim "laid them apart from their foes and the fell beast and set spears about them".

Author:	Gothmog 3rd [ Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:39 am ]
Post subject:
MuslimRohirrim wrote: could be, but it was not explicitly mentioned. it was only mentioned that "seven of the king's knights had fallen there, and Déorwine their chief was among them." besides their dead king in Pelennor Fields and they were given a special attention so the Rohirrim "laid them apart from their foes and the fell beast and set spears about them". I think this indicates that they were what we call Royal Guard. If Déorwine was their leader, then I assume he took Háma's place after the Battle of Hornburg. @whafrog. I personaly think the banner is overkill. I have no suiting suggestions for a replacing effect though.

Author:	whafrog [ Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:07 pm ]
Post subject:
We had talked about a double-range banner, maybe that's good enough?

Author:	whafrog [ Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:33 pm ]
Post subject:
I did miss the courage difference. However, I'm not sure courage is always worth 5 points, and he can't shoot, so maybe it's a wash.

Author:	Gothmog 3rd [ Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:14 pm ]
Post subject:
He also misses out on the War Spear option (not very royal). Points costs could always be changed later anyway. A few posts above, or maybe it was on the previous page, I mentioned my discontempt with the Bodyguard rule. Does anyone share my opinion? Which is that it should be limited by range to encourage people to have the bodygurads close to the hero they are supposed to protect. Perhaps we could say that when a bodyguard within range of said gero, he counts as being under the effect of fury? Just change the wording?