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Rewriting the Rulebook!
http://wwww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14419		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  King Elessar the Uniter [ Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Rewriting the Rulebook!
Rewriting the Rulebook! :lol:

I've been thinking about writing new stats for the peoples of Middle Earth for some time now but I want them to be a bit more accurate to how Tolkien describes each race. :-D
Here are a few ideas (just the base profiles for now!):

Hobbit: Movement: 4"
F/SH S D A W C
1/3+ 2 3 1 1 5

Goblin: Movement: 4"
F/SH S D A W C
2/4+ 2 4 1 1 2

Orc: Movement: 5"
F/SH S D A W C
3/5+ 3 4 1 1 2

Morannon Orc: Movement: 6"
F/SH S D A W C
3/5+ 4 5 1 1 2

Uruk-hai (Mordor): Movement: 7"
F/SH S D A W C
4/- 5 6 1 1 3

Uruk-hai (Isengard): Movement: 7"
F/SH S D A W C
?/4+ 5 ? 1 1 3

(?- I was wondering if there was some difference the Uruk-hai of Isengard and Mordor have that could be shown in their stats?).

Haradrim: Movement: 6"
F/SH S D A W C
4/4+ 4 5 1 1 3

Far Haradrim: Movement: 7"
F/SH S D A W C
5/3+ 5 4 1 1 4

Easterling: Movement: 7"
F/SH S D A W C
5/- 5 5 1 1 3

Rohirrim: Movement: 6"
F/SH S D A W C
5/4+ 4 4 1 1 4

Gondorian: Movement: 6"
F/SH S D A W C
6/4+ 4 5 1 1 4

Dunedain: Movement: 7"
F/SH S D A W C
7/3+ 4 5 1 1 5

Numenorian: Movement: 7"
F/SH S D A W C
7/3+ 4 6 1 1 5

Wood Elf: Movement: 8"
F/SH S D A W C
7/3+ 4 4 1 1 6

High Elf: Movement: 8"
F/SH S D A W C
8/3+ 4 6 1 1 6

Dwarf: Movement: 5"
F/SH S D A W C
6/4+ 5 5 1 1 5

I was thinking of perhaps making some special rules for the different races; things like courage bonuses for Orcs/Goblins in large numbers or higher Fight/Strength value for Rohirrim on horseback etc... :)

I also haven't included points as wargear options still need looking at more closely and the uses of those (I don't totally agree with the spear support system, so that needs looking at)... :)

Any comments or help will be gratefully appreciated!

:rofl:
Author:  droco [ Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
i think they all look good exept i think goblins should have 3 def

the good models have high fight value witch i think some could be lowered
though i like gondor becoming better . if all these troops have high fight values then all heros will have hella high fight values :)

i think the uruk hai should be
F/SH S D A W C
5/4+ 5 5 1 1 4
though they would caust a lot
i think a good point caust for them would be 12

i think it is cool that you didi this 8)
Author:  hithero [ Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
More accurate? Thats just a matter of opinion, for example, I'm pretty sure that Uruks were only just as good a Man and not considerably better. And just why are easterlings so strong and fast? With these stats as a starter, all you heroes are going to have stats of 10 in everything.
Author:  King Dain Ironfoot [ Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
I, for one, would LOVE the game to be perfectly representative of Tolkien's visions for Middle-earth. However, it simply isn't possible to do so. If you could have the option of spending $30 on a force for Gondor that could fight off a $100 force of Orcs or $120 force of Goblins, why would ANYONE spend the extra money to play horde armies? Fv 8 Elf warriors that can massacre an entire Goblin horde without losing one of their own may be more realistic in Tolkien's vision, but it wouldn't make a very fun battle game! :)
Author:  mitch_rohan [ Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:03 am ]
Post subject: 
well if u want it to be accurate to that of tolkiens descriptions here are some more accurate ones

mordor orcs

F S D A W C
2/5+ 3 4 1 1 2

uruk-hai

F S D A W C
3/4+ 3 4 1 2 3

haradrim

F S D A W C
3/3+ 3 4 1 1 3

easterling

F S D A W C
4/4+ 3 5 1 1 3

rider of rohan

F S D A W C
4/3+ 3 5 2 1 5

warrior of minas tirith

F S A D W C
5/4+ 3 1 6 1 4

this is much more accurate to tolkiens description a man should be at least double an orc and the rohirim and gondorians where above all races
Author:  King Elessar the Uniter [ Mon Mar 16, 2009 7:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
Whoops, I forgot about this topic! :oops:

droco wrote:
i think they all look good exept i think goblins should have 3 def


Why?

droco wrote:
the good models have high fight value witch i think some could be loweredthough i like gondor becoming better . if all these troops have high fight values then all heros will have hella high fight values :)


Yeah I know they are high and to be honest I don't see too much of a problem with heroes with high fights, though I can see where you are coming from so some might need tailoring down a little! :oops:

droco wrote:
i think the uruk hai should be
F/SH S D A W C
5/4+ 5 5 1 1 4
though they would caust a lot
i think a good point caust for them would be 12


Hmmm, I like the idea of Uruks having a higher strength than a normal man but I don't think that such a high fight or courage quite fits.

droco wrote:
i think it is cool that you didi this 8)


Thanks! :)

hithero wrote:
More accurate? Thats just a matter of opinion, for example, I'm pretty sure that Uruks were only just as good a Man and not considerably better.


I know its a matter of opinion, that's why I posted it, I wanted to hear some thoughts about them (and I agree with you about the Uruks!). :)

hithero wrote:
And just why are easterlings so strong and fast?


Well the Easterlings are so strong as they are said to fight with two-handed axes, but I'm not sure why I gave them such a big movement - sorry! :oops:

hithero wrote:
With these stats as a starter, all you heroes are going to have stats of 10 in everything.


Yeah, I know there's problems with this idea, as there is with any, but perhaps decreasing fight values a little will mean less double-figures, as strength and defence etc, will only going up by one or two. :)

King Dain Ironfoot wrote:
I, for one, would LOVE the game to be perfectly representative of Tolkien's visions for Middle-earth. However, it simply isn't possible to do so. If you could have the option of spending $30 on a force for Gondor that could fight off a $100 force of Orcs or $120 force of Goblins, why would ANYONE spend the extra money to play horde armies? Fv 8 Elf warriors that can massacre an entire Goblin horde without losing one of their own may be more realistic in Tolkien's vision, but it wouldn't make a very fun battle game!


Yeah I realise there are issues with the ideas, especially the fight values, but I'm not suggesting they would be accepted by many players (because of the cost of horde armies), but I just want to see if you could still play the game while being a little closer to Tolkien's ideas. :)

@mitch_rohan - The idea Orcs having a fight of 2 is much better, but I think the Uruks should be a little stronger! The other stats are good too, but why does a ROR have 2 attacks (is this just for the riders not the foot warriors?) and a higher courage than a WOMT?
Author:  Corsair [ Mon Mar 16, 2009 7:46 pm ]
Post subject: 
F7 dunedain, F8 elves - that makes Aragorn F12 i would say :lol:
Author:  WanderingDunedain [ Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:24 pm ]
Post subject: 
to be quite honest this is going to be a huge task, which is largley going to be largley egnored. and you have no wargear options, sorry to be the nitpicker but thats just what i think
Author:  gaarew [ Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
WanderingDunedain wrote:
to be quite honest this is going to be a huge task, which is largley going to be largley egnored. and you have no wargear options, sorry to be the nitpicker but thats just what i think


Well, considering that he's started the groundwork by himself, which is obviously still a WIP, and he didn't actually ask for help in doing it, may suggest that this is no more than a personal project.

Of course it is going to be a huge task, there is a rulebook and 14 sourcebooks to go through.

There is a specific mention of why the Wargear has not been included.

You may want to try reading the post in full and re-define your understanding of 'nitpicking' from 'stating the obvious' however...
Author:  whafrog [ Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rewriting the Rulebook!
King Elessar the Uniter wrote:
I've been thinking about writing new stats for the peoples of Middle Earth for some time now but I want them to be a bit more accurate to how Tolkien describes each race.


A lot of people have the same thoughts. I agree with mitch_rohan's profiles, they're more in line with the books (except I wouldn't give the RoR 2 attacks or courage 5...just 1 attack and courage 4). What made the Uruk-hai so scary in the book was they were almost equal to Men...almost, but not quite. Check the book version of the Helm's Deep battle, Gimli was avoiding the Dunlendings because they were too big, but had no trouble taking on the Uruk-Hai.

In general I think your fight scores are too high, you'd have to go to a D10 system to get the nuance you're after.

At the risk of tooting my own horn, here's a thread I started that is similar:

http://www.one-ring.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14184
Author:  King Elessar the Uniter [ Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:28 pm ]
Post subject:  What about these?
Corsair wrote:
F7 dunedain, F8 elves - that makes Aragorn F12 i would say :lol:


Alright, alright! :( I know the fight values are too high!

So how about these profiles? :)

Hobbit: Movement: 4"
F/SH S D A W C
1/3+ 2 3 1 1 5

Goblin: Movement: 4"
F/SH S D A W C
2/4+ 2 4 1 1 2

Orc: Movement: 5"
F/SH S D A W C
2/5+ 3 4 1 1 2

Morannon Orc: Movement: 6"
F/SH S D A W C
2/5+ 4 5 1 1 2

Uruk-hai (Mordor): Movement: 7"
F/SH S D A W C
3/- 5 6 1 1 3

Uruk-hai (Isengard): Movement: 7"
F/SH S D A W C
3/4+ 5 4 1 1 3

Haradrim: Movement: 6"
F/SH S D A W C
3/4+ 4 5 1 1 3

Far Haradrim: Movement: 7"
F/SH S D A W C
5/3+ 5 4 1 1 4

Easterling: Movement: 6"
F/SH S D A W C
4/- 5 5 1 1 3

Rohirrim: Movement: 6"
F/SH S D A W C
4/3+ 4 4 1 1 4
(Fight of 5 on horseback).

Gondorian: Movement: 6"
F/SH S D A W C
5/4+ 4 5 1 1 4

Dunedain: Movement: 7"
F/SH S D A W C
6/3+ 4 5 1 1 5

Numenorian: Movement: 7"
F/SH S D A W C
6/3+ 4 6 1 1 5

Wood Elf: Movement: 8"
F/SH S D A W C
6/3+ 4 4 1 1 6

High Elf: Movement: 8"
F/SH S D A W C
7/3+ 4 6 1 1 6

Dwarf: Movement: 5"
F/SH S D A W C
5/4+ 5 5 1 1 5


And could someone just explain why you would need a D10 system to play it?

Thanks! :)
Author:  Angrok [ Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:13 pm ]
Post subject: 
Ummm... I think you need to swap the stats of the Mordor and Isengard Uruks since it looks like the Mordor ones are more heavily armored. The book hinted that Saruman's Uruks were the strongest orcs around.

All of that extra Fight Value does not accomplish much when the evil models are so low since a fight value of 9 is still the same as a 3 when fighting a model with a value of 2. Unless you give higher fight values a bonus other than beating ties then it is pretty pointless.

I am not a fan of changing the stats to be more like the books for the concerns already raised. Regardless, if you were to do it then I recommend keeping it simple and really focusing on how the armies (Good and Evil to be precise) stack up against one another. Something around these lines might work:

Warrior of Minas Tirith [15] points
M F/SH S D A W C
6" 4/4+ 4 6 2 1 4
-Heavy Armor - Shield

Mordor Orc Warrior [6] points
M F/SH S D A W C
6" 3/5+ 3 5 1 1 2
-Armor - Shield

Uruk-hai Legionnaire [12] points
M F/SH S D A W C
6" 3/4+ 4 6 2 1 3
-Heavy Armor - Shield

The big advantage given to the WoMT is the extra strength and the extra attack. The extra attack stimulates just how superior Men of the West are and it should also give their archers a second shot. Now the strength will throw people off but it is there for two reasons. The first is, along with the extra attack, to increase the chances of killing the enemy. The second is Orcs (and most evil ilk) are portrayed as very inferior to anything the Free People's can field so it is pretty feasible to view a regular orc not being as physically strong as a fit Gondorian.

The Isengard Uruk shows an example of how "almost as strong as man" might look. The Uruk has everything the Gondorian has (including the critical extra attack) but will still lose on ties and is not quit as courageous (this is all looking very racist :-X ).

Anyway, just throwing that idea out there. Whafrog had the interesting concept of rolling extra dice to determine who wins rather than giving an extra attack and that is probably a better alternative.
Author:  gaarew [ Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What about these?
King Elessar the Uniter wrote:

And could someone just explain why you would need a D10 system to play it?



You don't need a D10 system to play it, it's just that by changing the D6 to D10 gives you a greater spread for rolling, meaning you can alter the Wound chart, shooting values, etc.

The greater the spread, the greater the variation. And the greater the complexity...


WHFR used a D100 system. In combat you made the roll, then reversed the result to work out what part of the opponent you hit.
Author:  mitch_rohan [ Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:41 am ]
Post subject: 
well i imagined that warriors of gondor would be of much higher fight value and that the rohan warriors arent as good but are more courageuos and uruks should not be s4 as theres no real evidence that supports there immense strength
Author:  Haradrim Raider [ Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
I don't understand. Games Workshop spend tons of time writing a 248 page rulebook and an awful lot of sourceboks, just for you to say 'i'm re-writing it all the profiles.' There's no point in it because no one would do it anyway. I don't understand. Why should people play ur game. Games Workshop must have had it reason for doing it that way, and that was so they could play fair games.
Author:  King Dain Ironfoot [ Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
Games Workshop's rules have been "Codex Creep"ing for a couple of years now. The Evil side tends to be more powerful than the Good. Now before you start throwing the rotten fruit at me, have a listen:

The Good side has very few Strength 4+ Warriors. The only 2 S4 ones are both Dwarves and the only ones higher are Ents and Eagles, both of which need an expensive Hero to be allied in. Good's main strength was always their Heroes who have good Fv and Courage.

Evil can negate these Heroes with ease. Considering that any army at all can have a 55 point Hero-disabling Nazgul who can be hidden behind his other 49 models and still cast spells, Aragorn, Elrond, Boromir and the others are a gamble.
Author:  Angrok [ Thu Mar 19, 2009 2:20 am ]
Post subject: 
King Dain Ironfoot wrote:
Games Workshop's rules have been "Codex Creep"ing for a couple of years now. The Evil side tends to be more powerful than the Good. Now before you start throwing the rotten fruit at me, have a listen:

The Good side has very few Strength 4+ Warriors. The only 2 S4 ones are both Dwarves and the only ones higher are Ents and Eagles, both of which need an expensive Hero to be allied in. Good's main strength was always their Heroes who have good Fv and Courage.

Evil can negate these Heroes with ease. Considering that any army at all can have a 55 point Hero-disabling Nazgul who can be hidden behind his other 49 models and still cast spells, Aragorn, Elrond, Boromir and the others are a gamble.


*Throws rotten fruit*

You are both right and wrong in your views but the real question is why are we even on the subject of Good/Evil balance? I am pretty sure Haradrim Raider was referring to "fair" in the sense of not following Tolkien's work with Men of the West being able to kill a dozen Orcs without breaking a sweat. :roll:
Author:  whafrog [ Thu Mar 19, 2009 2:24 pm ]
Post subject: 
Haradrim Raider wrote:
I don't understand. Games Workshop spend tons of time writing a 248 page rulebook and an awful lot of sourceboks, just for you to say 'i'm re-writing it all the profiles.' There's no point in it because no one would do it anyway. I don't understand. Why should people play ur game. Games Workshop must have had it reason for doing it that way, and that was so they could play fair games.


Hey, I think GW did a *great* job balancing most things. I really like the game and the job they did (and do). It's just that the flavour of the profiles are definitely based on the movies, not the books, and Peter Jackson took the liberty to dumb down and weaken Rohan and Gondor, while boosting Uruks, etc. Some of us would like to see it play like the books.

Since this topic keeps popping up with new people, I'd say we're not alone :P

The main problem is that the system favours quantity over quality. You can boost fight scores all you want, but it's almost irrelevant if you're rolling 1 die and your opponent rolls 2. The game engine is so finely tuned, it's very difficult to tweak without throwing the whole thing out of whack.

But none of that will stop people poking at it. I predict another thread by a new person within a month :)
Author:  Aragorn by the Bay [ Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
Why are people so lacking in social graces on these blogs?

If someone takes a lot of their time to propose CREATIVE IDEAS in a FANTASY GAME, why shoot them down with comments like "There's no point in it because no one would do it anyway. I don't understand. Why should people play ur game."

It's easy to shoot down people's ideas, why not at least try to be a bit more positive??!@!

Let's try to actually help him improve his house rules. I think the concept he's after is sound - that he wants to play house rules that allow the forces to conform more closely to his idea of Tolkien's works. He views the noble armies of Gondor and Rohan to be far superior, man-for-man, to orcs.

I think this is a good idea. Like others, I think the FV's may be a bit inflated. Almost like they're a bit over-corrected. So maybe drop them down a bit, but still leave the good warriors generally superior to the horde armies.

How about improving heroes such that they're not victimized so easily by Nazgul. Perhaps limit how often nazgul can cast spells, or require them to be closer, or give heroes MUCH more will.

Just some thoughts
Author:  General Haar [ Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:27 am ]
Post subject: 
There are maybe two posts in this thread that blatantly say that this is a silly idea that nobody cares about. Did you just whiz past all of the other posts that actually provided a great deal of helpful advice?
Please don't go running through preaching about social graces and generalizing a whole forum population when people actually put a lot of their time into posting their thoughts, ideas, and advice to assist the thread creator.
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