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Pavise tactic - is it workable?
http://wwww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14000		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  MuslimRohirrim [ Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Pavise tactic - is it workable?
two units I find interesting, the Vault Warden Team of the dwarves and the Corsiar Arbalesters. Both suggests a block formation tactic with their great protection they provide.

What I'm thinking of is a 5-units wide front row of Pavise providing protection and cover to the advancement of multiple rows behind. If it works it would be especially nice boosting cover for Corsairs.

Havent's tried it coz I don't have the models yet, but do you think it worths getting the models (not a cheap bargain and I don't find them on ebay often). I really wanna know what you think and if someone tried it or seen it in action before so I appreciate your comments have you experienced it or not.
Author:  The Ironfoot [ Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:37 pm ]
Post subject: 
you could playtest it with "count as" models, not as much fun but i would work.
Author:  hithero [ Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:44 pm ]
Post subject: 
Won't work really as you will be wasting the shooting of the crossbows as you advance.
Author:  whafrog [ Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:07 pm ]
Post subject: 
hithero wrote:
Won't work really as you will be wasting the shooting of the crossbows as you advance.

I was thinking the same. With xbows you need to get where you need to be asap and stay there.
Author:  MuslimRohirrim [ Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:27 pm ]
Post subject: 
right, but considering Corsairs relatively low defence and need for numbers to be effective, IMHO it's a great advantage to reach opponent lines with minimum loss. And they'll get to fire later anyway - couple of turns later may be, when close enough for Corsairs Warriors to pop up waging their attack while still well away from direct attack at the same time!!
Point is, in this tactic I'm not using them primarily as Xbos but rather as Great Shields (Imagine them, almost as Uruk-Hai's in Corsairs army), Plus they're not that expensive - points wise. Plus the added value of Xbow that will come into usage but in time, they are evil and can shoot at anytime!

As for dwarves they are not bowmen anyway and that's what they're mainly trained for - sorta. :P
Author:  The Ironfoot [ Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
i could see it work since the pavices cannot volley anyway, you can run in range with all the corsairs behind then you open the formation and let them poor out. that would protect you from some turns of shooting.
Author:  General Haar [ Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:34 am ]
Post subject: 
Yeah it's good to get there with minimum loss but your arbalesters are far from invincible. They're still being wounded on 6's, instead of 5's, which isn't bad but it won't make a HUGE difference. I'd rather have them shooting for an extra turn or two. It'd be great to get there with minimum loss, but I'd rather make my opponent take some losses.
Author:  lorderkenbrand [ Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:37 am ]
Post subject: 
I've got 6 Arbalesters and they don't do as much damage as you would think they should. Moving them is a pain, so I wouldn't position the whole army behind them. Perhaps lower defence archers.

The Vault Warden teams are much tougher and unless they come up against F5 or higher, then they are pretty much guarenteed to win combat and with strength 4 wounding is even more likely. A line of these however would be costly at 25 points a team.
Author:  MuslimRohirrim [ Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thanks guys, great points. ok, I am not holding on to it, but just pouring my mind out to get to the bottom of it trying to get the best of it or toss it away if it ain't worth it so please bear with me and keep it coming guys. and sorry if this is kinda long one (not really :P )

First Arbalesters:

General Haar wrote:
arbalesters are far from invincible.


I totally agree! but so are Uruks with almost same status. Why is it straight forward using Uruks as Shields while it's not that simple using Abalesters the same way?

IMHO it's because of the choices that Arbalesters offer that Uruks (at the same points cost) don't. Xbows. But I look at this as flexibility not obligation.

You have no choice but to use Uruks this way, but with Arbalesters you have a choice to use them primarily either as Xbows OR Shields and use the other property as secondary tactic.

So you just need to decide your priorities in the battle. Stay back to shoot mainly and use their defence for arbalesters to protect themselves and may be a second line of bows. Or use them as Corsir Uruks shields to cover your advancing units, and then shooting will be your secondary tactic when they open your formation - the way Ironfoot put it.

The 1S point more in Uruks status over Arbalesters' is not that important, because you won't be planning for Arbalesters to engage battles but rather stop at a reasonable distance away to shoot their Xbows.

Common guys help me decide here, I may be building my next buying on this and any advice or thoughts would sure help.


lorderkenbrand wrote:
Moving them is a pain


why is that?

Second Vualt Wardens:

lorderkenbrand wrote:
A line of these however would be costly at 25 points a team.


Again I agree to that, but that proposes a question: how can they be used if not at what they do best...shielding, and when to use them?
Author:  whafrog [ Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:39 pm ]
Post subject: 
MuslimRohirrim wrote:
but so are Uruks with almost same status. Why is it straight forward using Uruks as Shields while it's not that simple using Abalesters the same way?

IMHO it's because of the choices that Arbalesters offer that Uruks (at the same points cost) don't. Xbows. But I look at this as flexibility not obligation.

You have no choice but to use Uruks this way, but with Arbalesters you have a choice to use them primarily either as Xbows OR Shields and use the other property as secondary tactic.


IMHO, you're over-emphasizing only one aspect of Arbalester's flexibility. The Pavise rule makes them expensive combat troops, but this is where Uruks shine. Either way, each has two out of three flexibility points, and they only share one.

You use your shielded Uruks to advance because once they get there, they kick major bunnies. (I can say "bunnies" can't I? :) ) You do NOT want to advance under your Arbalesters because you do not want them anywhere near a fight. You want them shooting from behind a wall, or quickly capture a guardable strong point with good lines of sight and hunker down.

All the guys hiding behind them have to pop out at some point anyway. I usually find when I mix up my troops too much, movement decisions become a lot more complex because I have to worry about my own guys blocking lines of sight. If you advance behind the Arbalesters, you're sure to cause this problem to yourself, and maybe miss some key shots.

Vault Wardens have similar drawbacks. They are for guarding narrow points of access, to push up tunnels or form the rear guard as Durin runs from the Balrog. If they get out in the open and surrounded they quickly lose their benefits since they only excel as a team.

Trade offs everywhere...

So should you buy them? I can imagine many scenarios they would be useful, and I think they do look cool, but that's not where I'd spend my money first.
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