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LEGAL? OR NOT LEGAL? THAT IS THE QUESTION!
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Author:  Lord_Cicapha [ Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:14 am ]
Post subject:  LEGAL? OR NOT LEGAL? THAT IS THE QUESTION!
NOW HERE IS SOMETHING INTERESTING FOR ALL YOU TO PONDER!!!!!!

I came up against a Gondor player in the local gaming shop and he decided to use a strange tactic that i had never encountered anyone ever using on my Uruk pike block. He had roughly 15 rangers which he positioned on top of a hill overlooking the battlefield which was basically flat. the rest of his Gondor force was well spread away from me. The rangers being the closer and my Uruks roaring for man flesh made me think.... FOR ABOUT 2 SECONDS!!! I proceeded to charge my full phalanx at him which i thought would be a interesting surprise. THIS is when things got interesting!

1) My lovely Uruk pike block began sprinting full speed at his cowardly rangers.

2) Shoot phase came (INTERESTING!) and he quite obviously decided to shoot at my phalanx. BUT, he did not target my front row he said (quite arrogantly, i may add) that he was targeting my back row of pikes!

3) Being kind and reasonably (excuse my idiotish) n00bish. I let this pass. He shot and took in the way tests for my 2 front rows of shields and pikes. THEREFORE making his chances to hit x3!!!

4) Needless to say my uruk force was quickly devastated and brought down drastically in numbers as they reached the rangers.

He then managed to hold off my Uruks until his shield wall pincered me and i was destroyed.

Now the question i must pose to you is: Is this in the way pike block test legal!?! It truly is devastating and really worked well against me. I see the logic in it but cannot understand how he got away with it!

Cheers

Chris
Author:  valpas [ Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: LEGAL? OR NOT LEGAL? THAT IS THE QUESTION!
Lord_Cicapha wrote:
3) Being kind and reasonably (excuse my idiotish) n00bish. I let this pass. He shot and took in the way tests for my 2 front rows of shields and pikes. THEREFORE making his chances to hit x3!!!


This is the part that did not go according to the rules. If you shoot the second pikeman in the block, the process goes like this:

1. Roll to see if the shooter hits anything. The normal 3+/4+/5+ shooting roll. If he doesn't, it was a miss and do not continue rolling. If he succeeded, the in-the-way rolls just determine which one of the poor Uruks gets the arrow.

2. Roll hi/low if he hit the shield Uruk in the front. On low, he hit the first guy and proceeds to the wounding table. On high, the arrow continues.

3. Similar test for the first pikeman. On low, go to wound table, on high, the arrow continues towards the second pikeman.

4. Finally, if you haven't missed the shot altogether and it hasn't hit anyone in the front ranks, roll to wound for the last guy.

Check the rulebook for how on-the-way rolls work and remember to show it to your opponent as well. :-)

-- Pasi
Author:  albertsevil [ Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:13 am ]
Post subject: 
If he rolled against his shooting skill and did indeed hit something before proceeding to take in-the-way tests, then it is legal (and quite cunning). If he just rolled the in-the-way tests and didn't roll to hit then he's made an error and should be reminded next time.

I've heard of the tactic being used to shoot the middle rows of a phalanx or horde - it means the enemy gets spread out and if enough damage is done it allows you to fight them in two waves, and with in-the-way tests the worst that can happen is you hit the front rank!

Tis a hard one to fight against without cover, as even if you charged towards the warriors, his bows could simply fire directly into your flank and take out the pikes as they don't count as 'in the combat'. Good luck for next time
Author:  hithero [ Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:37 am ]
Post subject: 
Looks like you wre both playing the in the way roll wrong as stated above as you only make one 'to hit' roll - he is also a numpty. With S2 bows he needs a six to wound either shielded on non-shield pikes, if you shoot the front rank then in combat with S3 you would only need a 5 to kill instead of a 6.
Author:  MikeC [ Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: LEGAL? OR NOT LEGAL? THAT IS THE QUESTION!
Lord_Cicapha wrote:
3) Being kind and reasonably (excuse my idiotish) n00bish. I let this pass. He shot and took in the way tests for my 2 front rows of shields and pikes. THEREFORE making his chances to hit x3!!!
Chris


You will have to clarify this statement for us to determine validity. At face value it looks like he played correctly. He "shot" and rolled to hit. Any dice that miss you discard.

All others have hit. You just need to determine now what they hit through in the way tests. This is where I am confused about somehow tripling the chance to hit. Unless he was picking up misses and then attempting to push those through to the next row then it appears to be legal.

Shooting at low defense rear rankers is a common and legitimate strategy. It is also the strategy of choice if the front and back rankers will need the same wounding rolls since it is typically the rear rankers which have the support weapons.
Author:  Dorthonion [ Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
There is always someone who wants to win at all costs.... well, you will not be caught that way again and I suggest having copies of all relevant rules on hand for next time - saves arguments (maybe :-) )
Author:  Amarthadan [ Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:59 pm ]
Post subject: 
This is a devastating tactic, but I wonder if it's legal or not. It looks wrong, yet I believe it's legal. Man, if it is, I need to remember that one! :lol:

Rueben
Author:  Joansean [ Wed Apr 23, 2008 7:40 pm ]
Post subject: 
IF you rolled for the normal shooting tests , then it is perfectly legal what he does , but a very sneaksy and devastting tactic , that might tick some players of , like the Rohan Outrider and Gamling army.
Author:  Lord_Cicapha [ Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:41 pm ]
Post subject: 
Just to clarify things up. He did roll to hit then in the way shots. this effectively means he rolls for the shields. Any misses on this he must roll to wound on the shields, then a rank of pikes then the next. This way he can take out proportions of my force and spreads out my phalanx. I now must remember this tactic as i do plan to use it next time IF it is legal.
Author:  BilboOfTheWhiteTower [ Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:59 pm ]
Post subject: 
Yes, you roll to see if you score a hit, then roll to see if anything is "in the way". Now, you say he had his rangers on a hill, so he may not have to roll for "in the way" if he has a clear shot at the back row of pikemen.
So this sounds like a legal tactic.
Author:  MikeC [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:31 am ]
Post subject: 
Lord_Cicapha wrote:
Just to clarify things up. He did roll to hit then in the way shots. this effectively means he rolls for the shields. Any misses on this he must roll to wound on the shields, then a rank of pikes then the next. This way he can take out proportions of my force and spreads out my phalanx. I now must remember this tactic as i do plan to use it next time IF it is legal.


That is correct then and he did not cheat.

He rolled to hit, discard misses.

Roll to see how many arrows make it past your shielded ranks. Those that fail, immediately roll to wound on the shields.

For those that made it past, roll again to see if they make it to the last line of pikes. For those who don't roll to wound on soldiers in the 2nd line.

Finally those shots that made it all the way through, roll to wound on soldiers in the 3rd line.


Once again this is a legit tactic and will be used by many many players, especially bow fire dependent armies as they need to strip your rear support so their fighters have a chance.

For example, my High Elves will do this to you everytime as it makes no sense for me to try and wound D6 uruk hai when I can kill D5 ones behind the front line.

The only time when I can't do this is if somehow the entirety of the 2nd row is obscured and I don't have line of sight to them. But this is next to impossible because as long as I can trace LoS to any part of the model excluding weapons, bases and cloaks, I have line of sight.
Author:  hithero [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:31 am ]
Post subject: 
Lord_Cicapha wrote:
Just to clarify things up. He did roll to hit then in the way shots. this effectively means he rolls for the shields. Any misses on this he must roll to wound on the shields, then a rank of pikes then the next. This way he can take out proportions of my force and spreads out my phalanx. I now must remember this tactic as i do plan to use it next time IF it is legal.
I'm confused now as your 1st post suggested that he rolled x3 to hit and was gaining an advantage. I cannot see why he would want to try and shoot at a 3rd rank pike anyway as there is no advantage in doing so. BTW, I don't think anybody has mentioned this yet, but youcan only shoot at models if the model shooting could actually see the target, in this case probably yes as the shooters were on a hill.
Author:  tirno.alyanorno [ Mon May 19, 2008 3:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
Lord_Cicapha wrote:
Just to clarify things up. He did roll to hit then in the way shots. this effectively means he rolls for the shields. Any misses on this he must roll to wound on the shields, then a rank of pikes then the next. This way he can take out proportions of my force and spreads out my phalanx. I now must remember this tactic as i do plan to use it next time IF it is legal.


i didn't see this post before i voted! if he did what you said there its legal. if he did what you implied at the beginning then it is illegal
Author:  doop dude [ Wed May 21, 2008 7:51 am ]
Post subject: 
Legal. I use this correctly all the time with my GC. ;)

Lucky you clarified this up down the bottom, LC, otherwise I would've voted illegal.

Rock on

doopy 8)
Author:  eBob [ Wed May 21, 2008 9:08 am ]
Post subject: 
Yes.. now here's the thing... so long as he checked the shield models first for 'in the way' - and didn't start at the back!

The front rank are the first to be checked for in the way - because they are the first models that the arrow must pass to reach the 3rd rank.
If, as I suspect, he checked the 2nd row pike for in the way before checking the shield - then the move was illegal.

The shield must be checked first - 50/50 - if the arrow misses the shield guy then it has hit a pike model in the 2nd row. He can target the 3rd row - but either way he'll only take out a pike model anyway - so this is what Hithero means when he says there is no advantage to targeting the 3rd row over the 2nd - unless of course he was rolling the in the way rolls back to front in which case he's be getting 2 chances to hit a pike model over a shield.

He can target the back row so long as he has a line of sight which, as defined in the rule book - which means he very likely does have a line of sight because you only have to see a partial view of the model.

By targeting the back row he's not getting 3 times the number of hits as you suggest - he's just targeting your pike rather than your shields.
Author:  tirno.alyanorno [ Mon May 26, 2008 1:03 pm ]
Post subject: 
Can't see anything wrong with what ebob wrote, seems like you got your answer huh?
Author:  pwner jaleno [ Mon May 26, 2008 5:14 pm ]
Post subject: 
IF he was higher up then your guys that he would not have to roll to test for in the way.
Author:  eBob [ Mon May 26, 2008 5:39 pm ]
Post subject: 
Yes he would.

Be serious, he'd have to be 3ft in the air not to have the model in front partially in the way. :roll:
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