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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:12 am 
Craftsman
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I often use the Rangers of Ithilien as an allied continent for my Gondorian force, keeping the cavalry, mouted faramir, and beregond from that list while using Damrod, and then max out on WOMT and Rangers, it's a good list to play with as some of the rangers have spears, allowing me to slowly move them to the fight while stiil shooting, and beable to outnumber my opponent.

Overall I think that the rangers are one of the best forces to use in a Gondorian force, because although Minas Tirith is the most varied, it has no real access to good heroes.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:49 pm 
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The Rangers are one of the more intriguing lists in Legions. The good shooting value, the number of cheap named heroes, and the special rule for the Osgiliath Veterans makes this a potentially deadly list in the right hands. However, I've seen newbies play such an army and get annihilated with it.

This list does best in scenarios where it can spread out and skirmish, which is how it should be played. It's almost tailor-made for Domination, and since you could easily bring 2-3 heroes (or even all four) in a 500 point list, its possible to build small teams of heavy infantry each led by a hero with ranger fire support that can fight very well.

The list is weakest in close-in pitched battle scenarios. To the Death would be a particular problem, and the lack of cavalry could make recon, storm the camp and seize the prize difficult.

The best allied list would be Ecthelion to give it cavalry and access to guard units. You could then choose Faramir in heavy armor to lead the Vets on foot or to lead a cavalry contingent which is my preference for him.

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 Post subject: The Dead of Dunharrow!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:24 pm 
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Time to update this thread; almost done with GIF and then we can move on to Harad! :)
Seriously, any suggestions for topics after GIF? Let me know!

[h3]The Dead of Dunharrow[/h3][split][col]
[itemlist]Subtlety is not an asset when fielding the Dead of Dunharrow - this Army closes as quickly as possible with the foe, using the Terror Ability to keep the fights unfairly stacked in favour of the spirits. (Gondor in Flames, pg. 45)[/itemlist] Possibly one of the most unique armies in the game, the addition of the Riders of the Dead gives the Dead of Dunharrow some much needed speed and mobility.

[itemlist]STRENGTHS
• High Defence values
• Roll to wound against Courage
• All models cause Terror


WEAKNESSES
• Small in number
• Few points
• Only one Hero
[/itemlist]
The only gaming tip of note; the Riders of the Dead are not true cavalry (no cavalry bonuses) and have only gained the ability to close quickly with the enemy. This is an important asset allowing them the mobility to attack vulnerable targets such as archers, Heroes or siege engines.
[/col][col][aimg]img477f12cc2e251.jpg[/aimg][/col][/split]

Any thoughts on how the additional mobility will affect the way this Army will be used tactically or strategically?

In addition to any general discussion or comments about this list, let's continue with our expanded discussion using the Legions of Middle-earth scenarios as a basis:

•Which scenarios do you see a 500 point "The Dead of Dunharrow" list dominating?
•Which scenarios do you believe will be a challenge for a 500 point "The Dead of Dunharrow" list?
•Which allies (up to 700 points total for Main force and Allies) would you use to counter the weaknesses for those scenarios?


Cheers

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 6:30 am 
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The Dead of Dunharrow are the most broken list in the game. Hard as nails and dangerous, yes, but overpriced. The real problem is that the King, the only hero choice, may be the most overpriced model in the game. Situationally, he could be very good, and in a Pelennor Fields scenario he's golden, since teamed with Aragorn or Gimli he can punch out trolls or Mumaks pronto with his special rule. But his single attack and lack of might limits the effectiveness of the rule, and most of the time it's irrelevant anyway.

The riders of the dead are also overpriced, but they do provide a little speed. On the other hand, having something with a base that large with one attack is asking for difficulty. The riders are worth it if for no other reason than they let you fill out the points in the army. Prior to their release it was impossible to build an exact 500 or 600 point army solely with the dead, as you wasted 10 and 5 points respectively. No reason not to take at least 2 in a 500 point army (5 is the other logical choice) and at least 1 in a 600 point army (4 is the other logical choice).

Scenarios the Dead will dominate:

None. The King is not a good champion for Contest of Champions because quantity of kills is more important than quality in the scenario, and the king is best at assassinations. He's not bad for kill the To Kill a King but he's not particularly good either. They are not a bad army for To the Death but again there are plenty of better armies for that scenario.

Scenarios the Dead will have trouble in:

Anything requiring numbers, such as High Ground, Domination, Storm the Camp

Allies

Any legal Gondor list would be a good ally. However, for an alliance to be competitive the army size should be very big, 700 to 1000, so that the King's cost may be washed down and the army can fill its numbers with cheaper allies.

I vote that we go to Harad next.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:13 am 
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dammit... i'm behind...

ok, a few quickies....

fiefdoms are great, except for the fact that the lest expensive models are rangers....

rangers of ithilien are equally as good, although they should have some sort of rule like the GC, e.g:

Points value (of a hero)/Rangers per hero

10-14........................./2
15-19........................./3
20-29........................./4
30-39........................./5
40-49........................./6
50-59........................./7
60-69........................./8

and so on and so forth. i think this should apply to every army, because technically, any army can bring forth a battalion of archers.

now, dunharrow...

strengths... yes, yes, yes! a very good army to game with!

weaknesses.... yes, yes, yes, too. ok, so they can win by themselves, but what they really need is allies who are either very numerous are excellent fighters. oh, and you forgot a weakness.... no firepower, which leads me onto my next topic



allies.... definitely the GC! firepower enough to give sauron a real eye-ache, and can hold their own in a fight. yes, you may say, "you read WD to much", but who cares... they're right sometimes!

yeah so, hope you enjoyed....

:D

rock on

doopy 8)

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:49 pm 
Kinsman
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Hmmm,

doop dude wrote:
yeah so, hope you enjoyed....

I'm not much a fan of drive by postings. :wink: Nice to see you back doopy.

BoromirsGhost wrote:
I vote that we go to Harad next.

Sounds good to me. Only one more army to go for Gondor. Up next... "The Army of the High King"

Any more comments?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:24 pm 
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Not really much you can talk about with the Dead of Dunharrow list mate...

King of the Dead:

Yes, he's pretty good, but only if you win the fight. Every Dead of Dunharrow player I've ever faced is instantly drawn to them by looking at the Drain Soul Special Rule, and doesn't focus on the 1 Attack...therefore sending him out alone in hopes that he'll take down a powerful Hero in one blow, only to find that they keep losing their fights...

Keep the King with the rest of the Dead, please...

Warriors of the Dead:

"Dead"ly in combat, again, if they win. Their standard Fight value and 1 Attack makes them vunerable to lose against soldiers like Uruk-hai, Corsairs, Mahud, etc...my advice? Swarm tactics...or as best as you can do before you are utterly surrounded and weigh on sheer luck.

Against mahud though...3+ to wound...not bad at all.

Riders of the Dead:

Flankers only...send a few of these on each flank to attack the enemy three ways...they'll get confused by your tactics and then you may win the upper hand.

Onwards to Numenor!

Cheers,
Wolfy

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:01 am 
Kinsman
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CaptainOfTheWolfRiders wrote:
"Dead"ly in combat, again, if they win.


OMG! get out of town or i'll tyre you with my car!!! ;)

Curunír wrote:
doop dude wrote:
yeah so, hope you enjoyed....
I'm not much a fan of drive by postings. ;) Nice to see you back doopy.


;) cheers dude. (i keep telling myself not to call you cur, becasue it might insult you ;) )

as for m vote, how about we do Ruin Of Arnor after Harad? (dammit, there's no "Puss In Boots Eyes" emote! ;) )

rock on

doopy 8)

P.S: here's one for you wolfy... a guy sent his friend 10 puns. They were meant to make him laugh: no pun in ten did! ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:07 pm 
Kinsman
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doop dude wrote:
as for m vote, how about we do Ruin Of Arnor after Harad? (dammit, there's no "Puss In Boots Eyes" emote! ;) )

rock on

doopy 8)

P.S: here's one for you wolfy... a guy sent his friend 10 puns. They were meant to make him laugh: no pun in ten did! ;)


We did Ruin of Arnor way back when it was released matey :wink: ...I should know, I hosted it...

Sorry mate...and as for your pun, it's gonna take a wee bit more than that to make me smile again :?

Toodle pip,
Wolfy

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:31 pm 
Kinsman
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Quick, I better post another topic before they start up with the puns.

Last but not least, the final Army for Gondor is...

[h3]The Army of the High King[/h3][split][col]
[itemlist]Elendil was the greatest Man of his Age. It was his friendship with Gil-galad that led to the overthrowing of Sauron at the Battle of the Last Alliance. This list represents an army of that time, although it can be used to represent Númenorean forces from earlier in the Second Age... (Gondor in Flames, pg. 47)[/itemlist] For players and hobbyist who enjoy the earlier stories of Middle-earth, The Army of the High King provides the basic Heroes and Warriors of that Golden Age. Limited in troop types, it can be a challenging Army to play.

[itemlist]STRENGTHS
• Powerful Heroes
• High Fight values
• Inexpensive troops


WEAKNESSES
• No cavalry
• No artillery
• Low Defence
[/itemlist]
[/col][col][aimg]img477f1301a3386.jpg[/aimg][/col][/split]
Gaming tips are straight forward. No cavalry or artillery means lots of infantry to overwhelm the enemy.

Would you take this Army as a main force to a tournament?

Let the comments fly!

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:11 pm 
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I would very much like to take this army to a tourney...here are some tips...

With no other troop type other than the Warrior of Numenor, you should take one of each "type" of figure, a swordsamn, a spearmen with shield, and a bowman in equal ratio, i.e. 1:1:1. This will ensure that you have the maximum number of achers, which allows you to...

VOLLEY FIRE!

Following the 1:1:1 ratio, it is assumed that you'll probably have 12 Archers and 24 infantry. Set those archers up on a hill in your deployment zone and start volleying at the enemy from turn 1, whittling your opponent's army down (since about 3-4 shots will hit) until you get to combat, where, against Orcs and Goblins, you will most likely win more often than not, due to the higher Fight value.

Another point that I can make here about Fight value, is that when fighting an army like the Mahud, Uruk-hai, or Corsairs, you will have a 50:50% chance of victory, because, unlike the armies of Rohan and Minas Tirith, your Fight value matches their's, and thus, when a tie occurs (which is actually pretty common in the games I play :wink: ), you have to roll the "random dice roll" to determine victory.

On to heroes,

Captain of Numenor:

With the very respectable Fight value of 5, the captains of Numenor are a humble addition to the force. Even if you take Elendil, you probably should take a Captain as well, if only to provide a wider Stand Fast! to your troops.

Isildur:

With High Defence, High Attacks, High Courage, and a ton of Might, this Hero, albeit, the whole reason for the diasasterous War of the Ring, is probably your best choice for a Leader for the army of Numenor. Weighing in at a mere 100 points, he still gives you a full 500 points to fill with troops and other heroes :D

Elendil:

Effectively, Isildur with a Higher Fight, More Will, and less fate, Elendil's chief power lies in Narsil, which allows him to call one free Heroic Combat per turn without expending his own Might to do such. An extremely benificial move. Team him up with a few warriors of Numenor at all times and call the combat at the start of the turn (which, why you wouldn't seems to be rather silly with that free one :wink: ). When (not if) you win and if you kill all your opponents, you can then move another full move wherever you want, slingshotting yourself closer to objective markers or more dangerous foes :!:

That's pretty much the army of Numenor...three heroes and one troop choice summed up to deadly effects...Onto Harad, or Mordor :twisted:

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 4:47 am 
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In its present form, is taking archers even worth it? They will be hitting on 4s, wounding on 6s against troops with D5 and up, and will die to counter fire on 5s (or 4s! if X-bows are around).

Perhaps loading up all on melee with shield and swarming them with Fight 4 troops might be a better idea. Shooting is defiantly not this army's forte.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 12:22 pm 
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True, but in a 600 point tourney army, you can include at least 16 archers with either Elendil or Isildur as your hero and a Captain.

Now, probability states that out of those 16, at least 8 shots will hit something, and out of those two or three enemies will die. I know that might not seem like much, but with the game going to way it is, with more expensive, High Fight, High Strength, and 2A troops (ala Mahud :roll: ), two or three deaths per turn will have a serious affect on them.

Plus when you volley fire on turn 1, a few of the enemies will die outright before even moving, that has a bit of a psychological effect...the opponent will focus on the archers that were pestering him/her so much in the beginning that he/she will forget about the fact that you have Elendil on the front lines until it's too late :twisted:

Cheers,
Wolfy

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:34 am 
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my main issue with the Numenorian army is the lack of mobility, even if you ally with elves you don't gain many mounted units. you could however use heroic combat as a 12" a turn slingshot or if you stay in a tight group and defend the flanks with heros you can probably survive a cavalry charge. Luckily as the spearmen also have shields there is not as bigger advantage gained from coming in behind

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:28 pm 
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Once upon a time, back when fight value 4 meant something, this was a nice list. Unfortunately . . .

I really like this list, its lore and the figures. But they are simply not competitive any more, not when every other good army (except hobbits) has either a D6 or higher front line troops, or cavalry to make up for it, and evil armies have either D6, or cheaper troops. The low defense and relative cost means you will either be outnumbered by troops that wound you on the same roll you wound them, or that will outsurvive you in a slug-fest.

I am the only person I have ever seen actually bring these figures to a tourney, and then it was in a Last Alliance list mixed with high elves purely for theming purposes. Because I split the points I couldn't volley fire, and I found the list hard to work with for less than 700 points as the two armies are very different in mode. However, a purely Numenorian list would be even harder to work with.

A few general tactical suggestions on gaming with this list. Yes, a 1:1:1 ratio is the way to go, unless you want to buy extra figures and do conversions, and get a group of warriors with spear and bow to back up your front line of shieldmen. The latter configuration can be made the same size or just a little smaller in number than the 1:1:1 but will be allow you a longer supported battle line and some cover for your archers.

Then you have to answer a basic list-building question. Horde or finesse? Because this list can do either, but not both. If you want to go horde, then you'd pick a basic captain or two and all the infantry you can muster, maxing numbers. However, you'll be in trouble if you face a true horde army.

The better option imho is to go finesse, because you have two nasty heroes available. The game's cheapest 3-attack hero, Isildur, with the ability to go ninja by using the ring (just hope Sauron's not around), or the truly deadly Elendil, a killing machine par excellance. A banner is useful for this kind of list, because you can get 3 dice per combat in banner range and the FV means that you will win ties against quite a few of your opponents. The lower defense doesn't matter when you are winning combats. :)

As far as scenarios, Elendil would do great in Contest of Champions, Isiildur would do okay in To Kill a King (Elendil would be too vulnerable to archery), and the army might do okay in pitched battles. But the lack of cavalry and top-flight archery (either 3+ shoot value or S3 bows) means you would be vulnerable in mobility-based scenarios (Recon, Seize the Prize, Storm the Camp). For Domination or High Ground you would want the horde-style army. In short, it's hard to build a well-rounded list with this army.

Allies: your choices are very limited -- high elves make a nicely themed ally but until this list gets access to cavalry it will have a major weakness.

Would I take this list as my primary to a tournament? Not if I wanted to win it, unfortunately. :cry:

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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 7:04 pm 
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Thank you all for some really productive discussions on Gondor.

Here is your final chance to make any last many comments or observations, we'll be moving on to a new subject by the end of the week. Next up HARAD!

Cheers

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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 4:14 am 
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I have taken a hard look at Numenorean archers and I still disagree about taking them. 16 archers with regular bows is not sufficient in a 600 point list.

At the end of the day you will be easily outshot by any Elves and Dwarfs with S3 bows and Urukhai X-bows will dominate your force in shooting.


Anyone that doesn't rely on shooting will almost always be packing D5 or better and even in direct fire, you are averaging 1.333 wounds a turn. Your opponent will screen his expensive troops with his chaff and when they hit your lines, they will be popping your D5 men like crazy since you don't have enough spear support to go around.

I still think the best way to go is 1:1 Swords and Spears and swarm to maximize Fight 4.
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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 7:53 am 
Kinsman
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Uh-oh.... not this again..... is Curunir still around? :roll:

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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 11:57 am 
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doop dude wrote:
P.S: here's one for you wolfy... a guy sent his friend 10 puns. They were meant to make him laugh: no pun in ten did! ;)


Dude , stop using Dorth's puns! :wink:

I think we'd better move on to harad! With Corsairs first please :wink:
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PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 7:41 am 
Kinsman
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Joansean wrote:
doop dude wrote:
P.S: here's one for you wolfy... a guy sent his friend 10 puns. They were meant to make him laugh: no pun in ten did! ;)


Dude , stop using Dorth's puns! :wink:


Dorth uses that pun???!!! :!: :!: :!: :!: :?: :?: :?: :?: Damn, better stop using it then... ;) just kidding Dorth.

Rock on

doopy 8)

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