Normally I would place the [SBG] or [WotR] tag on this but I this is a question that really relates to both systems and I would be surprised if it worked differently in each (although, I myself am only familiar with the WotR rules)

So obviously Might can be used to alter the affects of a roll. Page 65 has the rules on how to use it and it states

Each point of Might that is expended can be used to adjust a single dice scorew up or down by one to a maximum of 6 or to a minimum of 1.

So this part is obvious, if I roll a 4 I can expend two might to make it a 6. But I can't spend 3 might to make it a 7. Unless....

Rolls on tables have no upper limit

So now I have to wonder what the point behind the maximum of 6 is, but no matter, it is probably just means nothing. But wait, there's more...

This means that a player can always ensure the result he wants so long as he has enough Might points left

Interesting....always ensure the result you want? That would mean that whatever you increased your roll to would be considered the "natural" roll. I.E. increasing a charge die to a 6 would also grant you an unstoppable charge and modifying a roll of a charge past 1 would negate a stalled charge.

Yet on page 43 it states a roll of a 6 is an unstoppable charge. Not a roll of at least 6. So now we need to ignore another possible hole?

So this whole thing just seems way too convuluted and contradicting. Are there better, more clear, rules in SBG that you assume apply to WotR? Would you say that using might to alter the roll would give you the affects of that "natural" roll, or is it just like saying I get to roll a D6 + Might and a natural roll of 6 also applies these results?

_________________
hmmmm.....

I think you are thinking to hard, the problem doesn't exist.

Add as much Might as you want to get the score you want.
A modified roll is not a natural roll.
Why would you want to modify a roll above 6 when it grants you no additional effect?

With charging you may be able to charge further.

_________________
My WIP

http://www.one-ring.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=16352

Originally this question was going to be more directly involved with such things as Very Hard to Kill! but then I read the section about tables having no upper limit which rendered a large part unnecessary. However, I kept everything I looked at in because it was all still relevant to the main question.

But I have come up with something along the same vein as the Very Hard to Kill! question I originally had. Say my opponent rolls a 6 and for argument's sake let's assume that this roll wasn't on a table, it was a roll to wound. If I were to use something to lower his die result, i.e. the Curse of Morgoth fate, would he then be able to use might to raise it back to a 6?

This is where the majority of my confusion sets in. If we say he can raise it to a 6 then that means we are saying that he effecitvely rolled a 5 and adjusted it to 6 with might. So if he had rolled a 2 on something and had a +4 modifier (artillery hit total) he would be unable to add might as he has already hit the upper limit allowed.

If we say he can't then that would mean that might is affecting the actual roll while other modifiers are applied afterwards. And if it is affecting the actual roll it sounds to me that it would be considered the natural roll.

So is it D6+modifiers+might or is it (D6+might)+modifiers.
Yes, I do realize that these are the same equation mathematically, but remember the maximum limit on might usage.

Sorry it took me a second post to get the real point out.

_________________
hmmmm.....

I'm a little fuzzy on what your question actually is, but I'll take a stab at it. Modifiers (whether they be good or bad) are immediately added to whatever you rolled to get your total.
Then depending on what the total is you can mod it up or down with might. Unless listed otherwise (such as in the cases of normal Artillery or Ridiculously Hard to Kill) there will be a minimum effect of 1 and a maximum effect of 6. Meaning you could mod the roll on the table up past 6 or below 1, but there would be no additional effects.

*Note that even if you receive a TOTAL of 6 with modifiers or might it would not be considered natural unless you rolled an actual 6.

But the use of might says it allows you to use it to either a maximum of 6 or to no maximum if the table has no maximum.

So if we add modifiers immediately to the roll when someone rolls D6-1, if they rolled a 6 it would be modified to a 5 and they would be able to use might to bump it back to a 6.

But that would also mean that if they rolled a D6+4, if they rolled a 2 it would be modified to a 6 and they would be unable to use might to increase it any further. This of course only applies when not using tables/charge distance. My example is with the number of hits artillery causes, but there are a couple of other times this could come into effect.

_________________
hmmmm.....

Sorry, I still can't see the problem. You can modify rolls on charts (like the artillery hits) as far as you like if the chart goes above 6.

It's just like what Hithero said. If the table allows you to go above 6 then you can go as far as you want. Aside from those tables there are max limits like the D6+4. In that case 10 is as high as you can get.

But where are you getting your information from? It states that 6 is the maximum on a D6 and on a table there is no maximum. It never states that the maximum is 6+modifiers. Now, I think that it is obvious that it is meant that you could raise it to 6+modifiers but wouldn't this also mean that if there are negatives that you wouldn't be able to raise it up to 6? So a d6-1 couldn't be raised to a 6 with might. The way I see it, that makes might not an additional modifier, but a way to alter the roll itself. This would mean that you could spend a point of might to change that charge roll of a 1 into a 2 preventing the stall. This would also agree with the wording "a player can always ensure the result he wants so long as he has enough Might points left"

I appreciate the responses, but all you are telling me is the way you play it currently. I need some sort of evidence, or at the very least some reasoning as to why you think it works a certain way. Is there more specific rules in SBG that are assumed to carry over? Is there a rule I'm missing or misreading? Even some battle report evidence would be something.

_________________
hmmmm.....

Page 65 Might, 5th paragraph.

Which says...

Each point of Might that is expended can be used to adjust a single dice score up or down by one to a maximum of 6.....Rolls for charge distances and on tables (such as the Extremely Hard to Kill! table) have no upper limit - Might can be used to modify these rolls beyond 6...

Where in there does it say when you add might? It states what I have stated several times. If it is NOT a table, example of not using a table would be when rolling the number of hits from a successful artillery shot, the maximum that might can adjust the roll to is 6. If it IS a table, such as Very Hard to Kill! you can adjust the die as much as you want.

So I have a hero with a bolt thrower. The bolt thrower gets a 6 for Lucky Strike and I roll D6+4 hits on my enemy. The maximum I can modify the roll with might is to a 6, as this is not a table. If this is modified to a 6, then that would mean I got 10 hits. This makes sense and seems very logical. This gives us the order of operations as Dice is rolled, Might is added, Modifiers are added.

Using this same order of operations. Let's say my opponent was rolling to hit my troll and needed 6's. He gets two 6's allowing a single roll on the Hard to Kill Table! but I decide to use my fate, Curse of Morgoth, on one of those 6's making it a 5. Since the order is Dice rolled, Might added, Modifiers added, he would be unable to use Might to bump that up to a 6 and still get a roll to try and kill my troll.

The alternative, which doesn't make as much sense would be to change the order of operations to Dice rolled, Modifiers added, Might added. This would mean that if I rolled at least a 2 on my artillery hits from before, that I wouldn't be able to add might to increase the amount of hits because I have already hit the maximum of 6 (2+4).

This would also mean that my opponent would then be able to add Might to his roll to hit my troll even after I used the Curse of Morgoth on it. This, to me, definitely does not seem to be the correct method.

So if the first method is right, Dice -> Might - > Modifiers. It is my belief that due to the wording "a player can always ensure the result he wants if he has enough Might points" that modifying a charge roll of 1 to a 2 using a point of might would negate the stalled charge. Similarly, increasing a cast from a roll of 5 to a roll of 6 would give you the heightened effect of the cast.[/i]

_________________
hmmmm.....

Well, if you've made up your mind not to allow it in your games, why do you ask? o.O

_________________
Gold, silver, mithril.. You call that stuff treassure? Copper is the real deal!

The +4 in your example isn't a die roll modifier, its a number of hits modifier independent of the dice score,. You can roll a 4 add Might to make that a 6 and then add the +4.

Can't see a problem with using Might against the Curse of Morgoth either. That rule says you adjust the roll after rolling the dice, so do that, reduce the 6 to a 5 - player can then up it with a Might point.

The rules don't mention exactly when to use Might, no strict order is mentioned, so surely there is no strict order as you are suggesting? - use it at whatever point you or your opponant sees fit.

Wow you are making this so much more difficult then it has to be. You're trying to nail down a set sequence when there really isn't one. I think of it in the way of Roll>Mod>Might because that's just the easiest way for me to figure out what I need to roll for an effect, and how much might I would have to use to get a result I want. There is nothing in the book that says Might must only be used after or before modifiers have been applied. Besides it's like you said. You're not using might on the mod itself you're using it on the roll so you would end up with the same result.

You roll a 4 on an artillery shot that's targeting a formation of 4 companies. This gives you a +1 to the roll for effect because of the bonus for shooting at a bigger formation (pg 61 under the grey box)
Now you can add 2 might to that 4 to make it a 6. Then add the bonus mod of +1 to get a 7 right?
Well let's try it the other way. You roll the 4 then add the +1 mod to get 5 then you add your 2 might. Looks like we got a 7 again.
Just do it the way that's easiest for you to figure out.

So I have a hero with a bolt thrower. The bolt thrower gets a 6 for Lucky Strike and I roll D6+4 hits on my enemy.[quote]

I have a problem with this as a hero must be placed in the command company and no artilery peice has the command company option, we here are all under the impression that heros can't join them to begin with, as the use of might would make them way to overpowered.

Sildien

_________________
I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.

So I have a hero with a bolt thrower. The bolt thrower gets a 6 for Lucky Strike and I roll D6+4 hits on my enemy.

I have a problem with this as a hero must be placed in the command company and no artilery peice has the command company option, we here are all under the impression that heros can't join them to begin with, as the use of might would make them way to overpowered.

Sildien

_________________
I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.

Well I guess there is no point in continuing. I still believe that an order should be established, not for pointless nitpicking, but because it greatly affects the use of things such as the Curse of Morgoth fate. I'm just a little annoyed that no one has really given me reason to think that might should work this way and not that way.

_________________
hmmmm.....

There's the problem, you believe an order should be established, but there isn't one. You don't play SBG, the rules are different and so I have tried to avoid using SBG as a rules argument although you have requested it, so. In SBG models get a -1 for using 2-handed weapons to see who wins the fight. Heroes can roll a 6, this is reduced to a 5 but can then be Mighted to a 6 again. But if you want to house-rule it and have a set sequence for the way you want to play with Might, then do so.

Thank you, that is all I needed to know. Although it is possible, I highly doubt they wanted to make might work any differently than how it works in SBG. I still don't think the ruling makes any particular sense, but as long as the rules are clear on it then it doesn't really matter.

_________________
hmmmm.....

I don't think an order is needed,

just take it so that if there is an upper limit, it is not exceeded by the end,

to ensure this I'd say use this order:

first the player who made the roll says wether he want or does not want to modify, secondly the opponent does (Curse of Morgoth), and if the second player did, the former can choose to further alter, he can not alter anymore though if his opponent hasn't

it's based upon the heroic action idea and makes sense in my opinion

_________________
It's not about our past.
It's about our future.