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Help with High Elves against Uruk Hai (SBG)
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Author:  mike_a [ Tue May 11, 2010 3:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Help with High Elves against Uruk Hai (SBG)
Hello folks;


Had the opportunity last Saturday to play my second and third games of the Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle game. I was using my High Elves against a contingent from Isengard.

I don't have my exact list on had but it was something like:
Glorfindel
Cirdan
6 Elf Warriors with bow
some with shield and spea
some with elf blade
1 with banner

All had heavy armor.


The enemy had:

Uruk Hai Captain
Bunch of Uruk Hai Pikemen, with sword and shield guy out front
couple of berserkers
a few ork archers
sharku and a few warg riders.


We played the high ground mission, and then since time was pressed a straight battle just until the point where 1 side became broken.


My problem was that I got completely crushed both times. I was losing most fights due to being out numbered in terms of attacks by the pikemen, and they had a far easier time wounding then I did with there str 4. It felt like there troops were better, and he had more of them!

My main questions are thus:

1. How do you break a knot of pikemen?
2. How do you go about fighting Uruk Hai?
3. How do you make best use of the Elven Blade?
As in when should I use it as 2 handed, and when not.
4. Are banners worth it?

I am thinking to change things around a bit next time and take Erestor, Arwen, and a few extra elf warriors, is this a good idea?

Thanks;
Mike
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Tue May 11, 2010 4:16 pm ]
Post subject: 
Your problem is numbers. Drop Cirdan and take more Elf warriors with spear/shield would be my first suggestion. And at the size you're playing, even Glorfindel might be overkill but if he's your only Hero then don't worry.

Use your Elf bows to focus on the bows or Wargs. You will have a hard time with so few doing much to the Uruks or Berserkers, but in SBG you can usually see these weaker forces go down pretty easy to Elf bow fire. If you can eliminate his "few" archers then you pretty much control the board. The Wargs may still be a threat because they are so maneuverable, but you will see they don't usually last long against Elf bows either and if they choose to come at you some shiled/spear Elves can often take them unless way outnumbered.

As I mention, if you can get rid of the bows early then just keep slipping around 1/2 move and fire. You will start to make dents in his warrior block and every Uruk you kill with a bow is one less to bother you when you engage. If you can get a Line of Sight, always shoot at a Pikeman even if he's in the second rank. They are a point lower of Defense than the Uruks up front and therefore might be easier to wound (I don't remember the chart off the top of my head…but I think it makes a difference of a 5 vs 6). If you fail the In The Way roll then you hit the shield guy instead and still might get the 6, but if you get thru then you have a better chance of scoring a kill (and weakening the pike block).

Don't charge a pike block head on. Uruks are good fighters and if they're backed by one or two levels of supporting dice you're going to have a problem. If you got rid of his bows and eliminated or weakened his Wargs then start your bowmen (with maybe a small combat support) doing a 1/2 move and fire slide to one side while Glorfindel and the bulk of your forces goes to the other. He will either have to break up his block (weakening it) or else expose his rear to one of your teams (so you will either be shooting or charging a weakened side). Either way is good for you. But don't stop maneuvering and shooting until you have no choice. This is why it's important to control ranged fire so the choice is yours.

When you engage, double up every place possible. You wanted to know about the Elf Blades and here's where it gets good. If you can have someone with an Elf Blade fight with another Elf (with any weapon option), then have one Elf Blade swing 2-handed and the other Elf (even if he has a Blade too) swing 1H. The 1H has a good chance of winning the Fight for you and the 2H will often get the kill. If you're facing Uruks 1v1 or multi Uruks against one of your Elves, then use the Shield rule if you can. You won't score a hit but you'll win the Fight more often than not and live to fight another turn. Hopefully for that next turn that Elf can have some friends helping them. So if you're setting up Zone of Control limits, Elves with shields are your best option for blocking because of this rule.

Using these tactics (and some Elf "Tricksiness") I have a lot of success with my Wood Elves (Defense 3) taking down Uruks and Morannon Orc. Elf Spears to Shiled whenever I don't have the number advantage, then double or triple up with an Elf Blade when I do. Bow (and throwing daggers with Mirkwood) to weaken your enemies and help drive them to engage on your terms. You really must focus on controlling the battlefield though and making sure you do everything you can with Zones of Control, Heroic Charge/Combat, etc. to manipulate the fights to your advantage and Shield whenever the advantage is not yours.

(On a side note, if you can find the points throw in Arwen too…for her cost Nature's Wrath is a great spell and can really put the hurt on a pike block)
Author:  Highlordell [ Tue May 11, 2010 5:44 pm ]
Post subject: 
Well, all that could be said has been said.

You have to ditch one of your heroes, to get more troops in and therefore more bows. i would maybe drop both and pick up Arwen and Gildor, although i don't know if you are using LOME. Both of these 2 should be able to control an uruk pike block, Arwen can totally destroy it, and Gildor can Immobillise enemy Heroes.

Overall, just try to get more bows in, because if you kill the weak troop, he will be broken quickly and he will not last long. Also killing the captain would be a big boost, as that is his only hero.
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Tue May 11, 2010 5:56 pm ]
Post subject: 
For the Banner question, the answer is "yes, if you have nothing better to spend the points on". But you almost always are better off with extra troops for the cost. Banners look great and can help at times but are often points best spent elsewhere. If you just want to have the Banner in the army for looks your opponent will probably not mind as long as you're both clear that it's only treated as a normal warrior.

As noted above getting the Uruks to break and then run away is a good tactic and how you will often win. You don't need to kill all of them...just enough for them to make a courage test. Then charge his Captain with at least one of you guys and DON'T charge anyone else. Every move he makes will require a Courage Test without the advantage of Stand Fast (because the Captain is engaged in a Fight). You may see most of what's left leave the board right then and there.
Author:  mike_a [ Tue May 11, 2010 6:43 pm ]
Post subject: 
Ah I appreciate the advice.

Ya we were using Legions of Middle Earth. Speaking of which there are a few other guy in there like elf ranges, and elf knights, are there profiles out for these guys? For the elfs I am going off the big rule book, and fall of the necromancer as far as profiles are concerned, are then any other I should get?


Seems like numbers are my big problem I guess, I will pick up Arwen and then swap Glorfindel for Erestor, and Cirdan for Arwen. But I have 2 problems with that:

1. Trading 2 of my favorite characters for some random guy, and a lady I'm not fond of.
2. Takes away the defenders of the grey heavens them I had going and puts it firmly in rivendell.

Nothing overly wrong with this, its just kind of a shame that you aren't really all that free to use your favorites.

If I do that and drop the banner thats like another 130 points or so should be able to paint a few more guys and add to my numbers.

I think he will still outnumber me thou, and he has more mobility due to the wargs, and cavalry seems pretty brutal what with there knocking you down and doing double hits.

Thanks;
Mike

P.S. Tossed some pictures into my gallery.
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Tue May 11, 2010 8:10 pm ]
Post subject: 
I personally found Erestor is a goot supporting model but not your central leader unless you're playing low points.

I didn't know you had a specific theme in mind already, but if you have one then stick to it. Don't just shift what you want to play for optimized Heroes. Especially with Elves, there are many Hero options that can be very strong for you and you do NOT need to play a Rivendell list just to have a strong Elf force. I wish I had my LoME with me to give better suggestions for a Gray Havens list. It's just not one I'm as familiar with (but I thought it did overlap Rivendell a bit).

Arwen did stay with "Granny Galadriel" for a long time and so she's a logical and reasonable inclusion in a Lothlorien list and a bargain at low points for a secondary Hero who happens to have a great spell (but limited casting ability).
Author:  whafrog [ Tue May 11, 2010 9:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
mike_a wrote:
Nothing overly wrong with this, its just kind of a shame that you aren't really all that free to use your favorites.


Speaking of favourites...nobody has mentioned Elladan and Elrohir (the twins). They are a far better leadership deal than Glorfindel for about the same price.
Author:  emperor_thompson [ Wed May 12, 2010 10:37 am ]
Post subject: 
Banners are very useful if your enemy can bring more attacks to a fight than you can. Against uruk-hai with pikes, I would recommend one for your elf army. You will be able to get up to 3 attacks against their 3 attacks, but only use 2 warriors to do it. It will greatly improve chances of winning (remember, you have more fighting skill), which is very important as your elves will be sure to die if they lose.
Author:  mike_a [ Wed May 12, 2010 12:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
Well I guess if my whole theme revolves around taking 1 character (Cirdan) then its really not so great of a theme anyways. Cirdan is the only named character in the Grey Heavens list, the other hero being elven captain.

They also get the Elf Knight, Elf Ranger, and Defenders of the Grey Heavens, but there doesn't appear to be stats for these guys. Is there a set of well accepted fan stats or something?

Arwen does some really good thou, at least against Uruk Hai. Can you still use a pike if the front guy is prone? Or even if second rank guys are prone?
If I use that spell when I have priority and then charge they can't stand up right?

What if I let cavalry charge and then use it on them, it would knock down the mount and the ride right? Would that break the charge bonuses?

Thanks;
Mike
Author:  spuds4ever [ Wed May 12, 2010 1:05 pm ]
Post subject: 
whafrog wrote:
mike_a wrote:
Nothing overly wrong with this, its just kind of a shame that you aren't really all that free to use your favorites.


Speaking of favourites...nobody has mentioned Elladan and Elrohir (the twins). They are a far better leadership deal than Glorfindel for about the same price.


Yes, these are definetely some of the best choices of heroes you can get (and I know!). In fact, they're so good I think that they're under-priced.

Oh yes, and Arwen would be a very good choice if your enemy is taking pikes as she has nature's wrath which is amazingly effective as I discovered last time I used Elrond, nature's wrath was probably the only thing that won me the game. It's good because you'll knock over tonnes of guys and they'll be trapped in combat, can't be supported, and can't even strike back!
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