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Isengard
http://wwww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=25507		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Thecow [ Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Isengard
I have a game upcoming soon(500pts) and I go to be Isengard.
Heres my list

Warband 1:Uruk Captain(heavy armor and shield)
10 uruk-hai (5 swords and shields,5 pikes)
1 uruk-hai troll
265pts
Warband 2:Uruk-hai Shaman
10 uruk-hai (5 sword and shield,5 pike)
uruk-hai with banner
230pts

What do you think?
Author:  Thermo [ Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isengard
I have zero experience of Isengard and of sbg generally!

So take my advice with a pinch of salt! But my observations would be -

1) quite small in number
2) free up more points by removing banner (until higher points games)
3) not taking advantage of pike strength by using them as spears. Try work them into a block where you can have 2 ranks of pikes supporting a front rank
Author:  Goldman25 [ Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isengard
I'd go for scouts instead, they still have Strength 4 but they're cheaper, so you can get more. In addition, you have no archery at all, leaving it vulnerable. I'd also get more pikes than you have, as Thermo said, to get maximum usage from their extended reach. The troll can be powerful and dominate smaller games, but I'd instead maybe look to ally in a Cave troll and save points, so you can get more models in. Uruk-hai are powerful, but they still need a mob/arrow screen to avoid pesky arrows (Elf and Dwarf bows are a bit of a threat), and Isengard orcs fit the profile. Your force would hold up well against Rohan infantry, but lacks some manouverability without any cavalry.
:saruman :lurtz: :orc:
Author:  Thecow [ Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isengard
Im not a fan of scouts as theyre weaker in defence and I dont feel safe with them.
So how about this?


Warband 1:Uruk Captain(heavy armor and shield)
10 uruk-hai (5 swords and shields,5 pikes)
1 uruk-hai troll
265pts

Warband 2:Uruk Shaman
10 uruk-hai (5 swords and shields, 5 pikes)
6 crossbowmen

I wont take more pikes because Im hoping to use those two warbands sepperattelly (1 defending ,1 attackinng)
As for cavalry I can distract the with troll and throw them or shoot them down.
Author:  Thermo [ Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isengard
(Now second warband is 4 models over)

But regarding the pikes, the point is the whole advantage is being able to support a three deep rank (thus 3 attacks per front rank fight)

So for example, in a warband of 12, if you wanted swords and shields in the front rank, you'd go for 4, then support with a second rank of pikes (4) and a third rank (4)

I wouldn't (historically) split pike blocks into one offensive and one defensive as too easy to isolate, surround and overwhelm... would be either one advancing aggressive front, or a defensive line anchored again terrain, your troll or cavalry.

If you want an aggressive warband and then use pikes defensively in another, maybe remove them from the aggressive warband entirely.

Just my 2 cents!
Author:  JamesR [ Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isengard
I have a little experience playing as Isengard, and a lot fighting against it. To me the thing that doesn't make sense is your pike numbers, 5 in a formation keeps you from taking advantage of the HUGE bonus that they give you by being able to fight 3 deep! Only a handful of units even have this ability! As a rule of thumb you should always take pikes in multiples of 2 if you are going to have them supporting a swordsman w/ shield so a diagram of this would look like (w the letters representing their weapons) S-P-P. And really you should never split your forces too much unless the mission calls for it tactically like in the Domination type game, because if you do split your forces significantly and I'm your opponent I'm just going to make a concerted attack on each and kill them by sheer weight of numbers easily.

I do like your choice to use the troll and personally don't mind you using the more expensive Uruks because I play Dwarves (before they became popular lol) and Moria, I definately understand the value of Defense

Edit: I hadn't looked closely enough at your second army list so I took out my crossbows recommendation.
Author:  JamesR [ Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isengard
Also I guess I would just need to know the objective because the strategy of an attack force and defense force doesn't make sense to me, I fully understand division of forces to support each other ie a main shield wall with an archer or cavalry squad at the flanks but this you would have to explain to me so that I could understand the logic behind it
Author:  Thecow [ Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Isengard
Ok then, how about this?

1: Captain heay armor and shield
12 uruks 4 shield 8 pike
troll
265

Shaman on warg
6 wargs
4 crossbows
195

40 points left, any suggestions?
Author:  JamesR [ Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Isengard
Personally I'm a big fan of that list. Please also understand you are playing the game so you should always build a team you like and to have fun with :) I'm just trying to give advice off my gaming experience.

If I were to add anything to that list it would be a Berserker or banner, because you have 40 points left, and room for 1 guy in your second war band. Also you'd have to move the troll to War band 2 because your first one is one character too many.
I really like Shamen on wargs, they can move quickly around the battlefield to support troops wherever they are needed.

Also with the last 40 if a Shaman on foot is cheap enough you could toss one in, cuz the new Channeled Fury is awesome! Or some other hero, or you could upgrade your Captain if you wanted to a named hero. Really at this point I think you have. Well rounded force that any additions would simply be icing on the cake so to speak
Author:  Goldman25 [ Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Isengard
I believe Lurtz is less than 40 points more than a Captain, I'd recommend him and spent any leftover points on a beserker. Beserkers can draw arrow fire from your foot troops (everyone considers them a big threat) and they can tear through foes in combat.
Author:  whafrog [ Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isengard
Lurtz is a poor choice, costing the same as a captain but with less armour. An Uruk captain is great, as D7 makes it tough for even heroes to crack. Vrasku is another good option, adding some much needed and very effective firepower.

I'll disagree with the need to have 1/3rd shields 2/3rds pikes. Running around in a pike block is usually not very effective because your frontage is so short it's easy for your opponent to wrap around, which steals your pike support anyway. It's handy to have some extra heavily armoured shields to act as screens, flankers, and to hold gaps by shielding. The 50/50 ratio actually works out pretty well, eg you can set up a strong 3-deep center, with a single line on the wings. This setup punches through Gondor with ease: shield on the wings to hold their line in place, and you should destroy their center in two or three turns...then mop up.

The main problem IMHO is the troll at these points. I think you'd get a lot more out of 3 or 4 berzerkers and more warriors. If you jump to 600 points you could then add the troll, as you'll have a solid core.
Author:  Thecow [ Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isengard
Ok ill keep that in mind,
here what I came up with all of your suggestions

Uruk Captain heavy armour and shield
10 uruks(5 shield 5 spears
2 berserkers
190

Shaman on warg
12 warg riders
190

Vrashku
5 crossbows
2 berserkers
120

Looks pretty good in my oppinion.
Author:  Thermo [ Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isengard
Strongest list so far in my opinion, but my opinion is a humble one that lacks knowledge!

By opting for spears instead of pikes in your first warband, you can do the two ranks support. Good numbers and variety too for tactical flexibility!
Author:  whafrog [ Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isengard
WB1 can boost the pike count a bit, because your berzerkers take the place of extra shields, so 2 bz, 4 shields, 6 pikes.

Not sure about that many warg riders, 6 is more than enough, and your shaman doesn't have any Might to use for heroic actions (assuming he channels fury). Also, the Shaman is an Orc, because I don't think Uruk Shamans can be mounted, so his effect is limited to only your warg riders. Sharku would give you more Might.

I think you'd be better off with 6 warg riders (with shields), and another small squad of shield and pike. If you want a Shaman, take an Uruk one to get a broader impact.
Author:  smegbob [ Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Due for a win
First time post have been playing for about a year never won against mate but games get closer each time last time we were both 1 model to rout and dice favoured him this is my latest army

Undying on Fell
12 Pikes 290pts

Mauhur
12 pikes 180pts

Ugluk
6 pikes 6 Berserkers 210pts

Troll Chief
6 moran 6 morgul knights 308pts

Kardush
11 moran 1 troll drummer 268pts

Saroman w horse
3 warg riders 219pts

Wormtongue 25pts

Any thoughts or suggestions appreciated
Author:  SouthernDunedain [ Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isengard
If those are uruk pikes, the undying cannot lead them in a warband. He may only lead mordor troops. Also, I would recommend putting fighting uruk-hai with shield in front of your pikes for the extra defence.

So

Eg:
Mahur
3 Uruk-Hai w/ Shield
8 Uruk-Hai w/ Pike

That will do a lot better than 12 pikes.

Also, what is your opponent using/ normally use?
Author:  smegbob [ Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isengard
will swap undying and saroman around i usually use moran orcs as shield wall
usually he plays with mixed rangers knights of fountain court and army of the dead with the bane of my gaming life uber aragorn.
Author:  smegbob [ Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isengard
will also change 6 pikes to marauders
Author:  LordElrond [ Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isengard
@TheCow: For your last list, might it be better to use orcs with spears instead of uruk pikes to free up points?
That is only if you don't mind the lower Defence, you could get 2 bezerkers maybe?
Author:  chiefhugh [ Wed May 15, 2013 6:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isengard
Some one explain please. I have never seen uraki with spears so are you just counting their pikes as spears and negate their three deep bonus? and if so what would their point value be then?
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