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Isengard 1000pts
http://wwww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=22949		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Kingofkhazad [ Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Isengard 1000pts
First post!!
I've been on TLA for some time, but I thought it would be good to also get involved on OR, it seems like a great community :)
Anyhow, after a short break from LotR, for numerous reasons, I come back to find some bizarre, but I think quite healthy new structure guidelines. Would I be right in saying that wood elves have been hampered, but Harad has increasedit dominance? I am personally an Isengard player, and thus am thrilled with the new rules: the old problem of being split across two lists and horrid ally options being removed has made me very happy. In that vein, I would like to post a first list on here, for the purpose of a solid starting point, and potentially a blueprint for a future GT.... who knows. I'm not sure about how to organise the army on screen, so I'll just post the models and assume that I can work out the exact distribution of models later on.

Shadowlord
Knight of Umbar, fell beast
4 Corsair Reavers
Lurtz
Ugluk
Vrasku
Uruk-Hai Shaman-armour
16 Uruk-Hai Crossbowmen
16 Uruk-Hai Swordsmen
16 Orc Spearmen

I believe this is a legal list that works out at 997 points. It has very good ranged capabilities, a very solid fighting core, excellent anti-hero options, with an enormous store of Might points (15). Against common good armies, I feel this is competitive, with SL largely stopping irritating Woodies, and with the potential to simply shoot down any combat orientated force before slamming to pieces with a large number of attacks at a high strength. Of course, there will be flaws to the army, probably a large number, and I would be very grateful of they could be pointed out!
Bert
Author:  Telchar [ Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isengard 1000pts
Sort them into warbands, that's easier to read. I myself haven't played enough SBG to comment yet.
Author:  Kingofkhazad [ Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isengard 1000pts
Thanks for the advice, I'll reorganise the list now.

Warband 1
Knight of Umbar-Fell Beast
4 Corsair Reavers

Warband 2
Vrasku
12 Uruk-Hai Crossbowmen

Warband 3
Shadowlord

Warband 4
Ugluk
4 Orc Spearmen
8 Uruk-Hai Swordsmen

Warband 5
Lurtz
8 Uruk-Hai Swordsmen
4 Uruk-Hai Crossbowmen

Warband 6
Uruk-Hai Shaman- Armour
12 Orc Spearmen

Hopefully this is a lot clearer, and makes the army easier to criticise.
Author:  whafrog [ Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isengard 1000pts
Most scenarios seem to involve a lot less shooting, so I think the Shadowlord isn't as useful as he used to be. You have no cavalry, I think you might get more mileage out of squad of Morgul Knights and a captain to lead them.
Author:  Kingofkhazad [ Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isengard 1000pts
So you don't think that Wood Elves would cause havoc to the force if I don't have the Shadowlord? Although I do trust your experience, I can still imagine Elves hordeing, and shooting me to pieces while retreating into forests. In the best possible way, I really, really hate Morgul Knights. They annoy me to hell and back. Unless their rules have changed (I haven't got the Mordor book yet), I find them to be a huge points sink. Their terror is next to useless, given the high courage of most good armies, or the bodyguard rule, and for 7 points less, I can get Serpent Riders, who hit fractionally harder and the same fight value. 5 Morgul Knights=almost 8 Serpent Riders. Ina addition, given the abundance of Might points in the force, I would be hoping to get these guys into combat Turn 1, led by a 3 might wraith. In an already small army, I would be happier utilising larger numbers anyhow.
If I was to replace the Shadowlord, (which now does seem very appealing!), I would remove him and the Reavers, and insert 12 Serpent Riders, providing a strong attack unit, without the need to invest in a Captain as well. How does this sound as an alternative? As it stands, the army runs at 65 models, 18 X-bow shots a turn, and 13 might points. The only other issues are the lack of a banner, and whether the Shaman is worth his points as opposed to a nice and fighty Uruk-Hai Captain?
Cheers Whafrog
Author:  Draugluin [ Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isengard 1000pts
Drop the Shadowlord and get another warband. Also, put more into the first warband.
Author:  whafrog [ Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isengard 1000pts
Kingofkhazad wrote:
So you don't think that Wood Elves would cause havoc to the force if I don't have the Shadowlord?


I suppose that can still happen, but the new scenarios seem to make that less of a problem, partly because achieving the objectives doesn't leave a lot of time for that kind of tactic; also, requiring a hero for every 12 warriors makes spamming with elves harder if not impossible.

Kingofkhazad wrote:
In the best possible way, I really, really hate Morgul Knights.


Fair enough, then Sharku and some warg riders (for theme), or the serpent riders as you said. The MKs would better against elf bows though.
Author:  Kingofkhazad [ Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isengard 1000pts
@Drauglin: In other words, exactly what I wrote in my last post. At 65 models, another warband is physically impossible, without getting rid of a sorely needed wraith
@whafrog: I totally get your point, I was looking through the scenarios again today, and it does seem to be more combat orientated like you say. So yeah, I'm pretty happy with the army's general theme. What sort of force would play havoc with mine then?
On the cavalry front, I want to keep the frontline troops at F4, and I think the models are awesome. On the elf bow front, I would use the SRs as a rapid response unit in scenarios like Domination and Reconnoitre, and an initial assault unit in ones like Lords of Battle, so survivability isn't key in those situations. Do you think that Morgul Knights would do enough damage to justify their points cost?
Author:  Draugluin [ Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Isengard 1000pts
There isn't a model limit anymore, so if you drop a wraith, who isn't that sorely needed, you can get a lot more troops in there. I was just trying to help. Somehow, your last post didn't appear on my computer, so I had no idea that you had already said it.
Author:  Shadowswarm [ Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Isengard 1000pts
a note on the shadowlord question

when your vsing an army that has some decent ranged weapons, you have 4 options

1. disregard it

2. get something to stop them hurting you (shadowlord)

3. get good ranged weapons of your own to kill them instead (or at least draw their fire from your combat troops to your archers (goblin style :P ))

4. Get more warriors to make up for the ones your going to lose.

Everyone seems to forget about option #4. Example: you take the shadowlord and his special rule saves 5 of your models, or you could not take the shadowlord and take 5 extra models instead; either way, after all the shooting your numbers are still the same. Now im not saying that this is always the best option, as the shadowlord has other uses other than just his pall of night rule. Although the same can be said for having more models, if they dont have great shooting then i now have 5 extra combat models as opposed to before.

so i haven't actually suggested anything, im just putting this out there to help you see the other options available.

*as a goblin player, option 4 is a lot more viable for me as opposed to other armies. and since I often rush straight into combat, archery affects me less. so at the end of the day i have another warband and 35pts left over to upgrade (or get more troops if i still have more points) as opposed to getting the shadowlord on a horse.
Author:  Kingofkhazad [ Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Isengard 1000pts
@Drauglin: Many apologies, I must've sounded a bit rude. Why don't you think the wraith is needed? I would feel pretty stumped if I came across Saruman, with 0 ways of neutralising him. Besides, I seriously like the Knight of Umbar, and I need the anti-hero capabilities. Is there really no model limit??? Moria players can now leap into a 1000 point game with 130 models?? Surely that's a mistake from GW.
@Shadowswarm: That's a great piece of advice, cheers. All in all, that solidifies my reasoning not to put SL in the list. Point 4 really helped, and I think that with 65 models and a D6 frontline, I'm happy to weather the storm.
Thanks all,
Bert
Author:  whafrog [ Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isengard 1000pts
Kingofkhazad wrote:
Why don't you think the wraith is needed? I would feel pretty stumped if I came across Saruman, with 0 ways of neutralising him.


I think he meant just the Shadowlord, not both wraiths.
Author:  Kingofkhazad [ Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isengard 1000pts
Gotcha, I was surprised I'll admit! I was positive that the general consensus was that at least one wraith was vital. Speaking of which, as much as I do love the KoU model, and his better combat survivability, would the betrayer be a better choice?
Author:  Draugluin [ Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isengard 1000pts
whafrog wrote:
Kingofkhazad wrote:
Why don't you think the wraith is needed? I would feel pretty stumped if I came across Saruman, with 0 ways of neutralising him.


I think he meant just the Shadowlord, not both wraiths.

This. With the KoU, you get a decent spellcaster with a LOT of Will and LOT of might, who can also take care of anything that decides to fight him. Also, I know you said you don't like MK, but if you include a Nazgul, the MKs become that much better. If you fight a human army without that many Guard models, I would seriously consider trying them out.
Author:  Kingofkhazad [ Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isengard 1000pts
I suppose that with his Armour, I can afford to pour Will into ruining heroes with Drain Courage and Transfix. I'm probably being stupid here, but why are they so much better? I would really love to hear how 7 Morgul Knights are going to justify their presence against 12 Serpent Riders who hit just as hard. As you yourself have highlighted, the KoU has a lot of Might, keeping them on the move, while ruining any hero who tries to call a Heroic move. As for 'a human army without that many guard models', any decent good army is either elves, with Net courage 4,Khazads or Fountains. What other frontline troops should I be worried about?
Author:  whafrog [ Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isengard 1000pts
Kingofkhazad wrote:
I would really love to hear how 7 Morgul Knights are going to justify their presence against 12 Serpent Riders who hit just as hard.


They hit just as hard in the first turn, but it's the subsequent turns you might want to think about. It's hard to get 12 Serpent Riders out of the way of an infantry counter-charge if you lose priority...you probably need 2 heroes to handle the "with me!" range for a heroic move. An infantry counter-charge is the worst possible thing for cavalry: no extra attack, no knockdown, no lance. But for MK, Terror augmented by a wraith, plus D6, helps their survival for a possible second round of charging. Plus with one devoted hero you can probably influence all 7 if you have to make a heroic move.
Author:  Kingofkhazad [ Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Isengard 1000pts
This is very true. Too true unfortunately. Could I be forgiven for saying that I'm going to stuck with the Riders? I'm sure I'll pick up some Knights at some point for really making the army hard as nails, but I really, really love the Serpent Rider models, and I imagine I'll make a Harad army as well at some point. Thanks for the advice on the cavalry though, it's really helped. How do you feel about the infantry section?
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