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Dragon armies
http://wwww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=20795		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Tue May 17, 2011 3:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Dragon armies
I want to make a tournament sized army (700pts) based around my dragon with dwellers below, suggestions are very welcome, here is the rough idea:

Dragon with tough hide- 300pts
Wild warg chieftan- 75pts
22 wild wargs- 176pts
30 moria goblins (14 bow, 8 spear, 8 shield)-150pts
701pts, 54 models, 4 might, 14 bows

I'm thinking that allying in a hornblower+random captain would be smart, just to make sure my dragon wont bugger off and so i can keep the goblins in line. I'm, once again, thinking ugluk+ an uruk hornblower would do the job which would make the list:

Dragon with tough hide- 300pts
wild warg chieftan-75pts
ugluk- 55pts
uruk hai warrior with shield+horn-30pts
11 wild wargs-88pts
30 moria goblins (12 bow, 9 shield, 9 spear)-150pts
698 pts, 45 models, 7 might, 12 bows

Compare either of those lists to a gw example list and i have more models, might and everything but you guys seem to be more useful so give me a hand plz :)
Author:  General Elessar [ Tue May 17, 2011 3:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dragon armies
Personally, I would get Wings as well as Tough Hide for the Dragon, and then max out on Goblins. Something like this:

Dragon with Wings and Tough Hide - 350pts
Durburz - 60pts
58 Moria Goblins (with either shield, spear, or bow) - 290pts
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Tue May 17, 2011 5:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dragon armies
Be careful with a Dragon. At the 2009 Baltimore GD (last one that supported LotR :P :-X ) a player had a Dwellers army built around a Dragon, Spider Queen, Wargs and Spiders. Maybe a few other things as well…I didn’t draw a game with him myself. But two of my friends that were there with me did. In one game against a friend’s Mordor force the Dragon took a lucky hit really early in the game, balked and scampered away. It was pretty much over from there. Dragons (and Shelob) are nice but that risk of running based on a die roll is big. Maybe a Cave Drake would be more effective (I don’t know the Drake’s SBG stats very well).

On the other side of the coin, he won best looking army hands-down. Besides fantastic painting on everything, it was all displayed in a diorama that blended all the bases into a coherent whole (including some of the Giant Spiders being sideways on the walls). And, he did some cool work to give the Dragon light-up (LED) fire breath. 8)
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Tue May 17, 2011 6:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dragon armies
@Beowulf I doubt i will be able to use it in tournaments, its a dragon model i saw in one of those magazine things a while ago that was on sale and the right size (not to mention £30 cheaper) so i got it and based it, also i hear its £85 to get into an official tournament so that isn't not for me. I will, however, be able to use it at my local gw as im a bit of a jedi and my main opponents (7 or so of my friends) won't mind. I don't know a cave drakes stats either :( and i totally agree about the chance of the model running away being too great which is why i gave it only one upgrade and that is the reasoning behind allying in a hornblower, so it has enough courage and will to, even with double ones, pass its courage test.

@General elessar I dont have that many goblins, nor will i have the patience to move so many of the same model, and with the wargs i can be more smart and handsome with my tactics (not to mention be able to use a warg chieftan) However wings is probably a good idea, besides the fact i cut the wings off cos they broke :(
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Thu May 19, 2011 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dragon armies
Oh yeah, i just read what you said about shelob, she has to be the worst model in the game if you compare her to her cheaper counterpart (spider queen) but atleast she is not as many points as a dragon so if she dies you're not THAT screwed...
Author:  Tackitis [ Wed May 25, 2011 12:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dragon armies
SuicidalMarsbar wrote:
Oh yeah, i just read what you said about shelob, she has to be the worst model in the game


What?!

Shelob is a fantastic model. Run along side a mounted orc captain and a banner bearer there is very few thing that can stop her. I've taken her to a few tournaments in my time and have managed to win a couple of them thanks to her.

Yes I agree that her survival instincts rule sucks, but since she can now use her will (which she has 6) to modify her courage test she should at the very least get down to 2 wounds before she runs, if she run away at all. And now with the addition of Hornblower's I find it very hard to see her run away, without someone having to put in lots of spells and effort into getting rid of her.

When I look at the dragon he has got the same offense capabilities as Shelob (just magnified). Now I haven't played with a dragon much (only about 2 games) but honestly the only upgrade you need is fly. With Fly your able to pick your fights and chose when to attack so you shouldn't be getting into unfair fights (no need for though hide). Wrymtongue nice but wraiths can do a better job. And breath fire is good but only when you when you want something to go away.

The way I see it they put survival instinct in there because the models would be to awesome without it.
Author:  spuds4ever [ Wed May 25, 2011 11:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dragon armies
Whilst we're on this topic, is it possible to make a competitive balrog list? Anyone have any experience?
Author:  Shadowswarm [ Wed May 25, 2011 3:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dragon armies
well i have a fair bit of experience with teh dragon, i took him to a 800pt tourny (my army was: dragon w/ fly and tough hide, durburz, shaman, 70something goblins :D) and smashed everyone with it (although no one was terrible compedative, and 1 game i ran out of time....). and ive just messed around with him in 500pt and 700pt armies.
- here are some things ive learned: breath fire and wyrmtoungue are terrible, tough hide is only needed for big games (700pts and up), fly is a must have for him, otherwise you just wasted ur dragon (if your going to spend at least 300pts on a hero, make sure he can get around to the places/fights he needs to be)
- his courage is fine, since you wont use fire or magic w/ him you will have will AND might to boost your courage (so you can still use will to resist spells)
- heroic fight combined with fly is the dragons ace card, ive slaughtered people by slingshotting into their heroes, to the point that eventually people ALWAYS had 3 warriors around their heroes (but volley stopped that ;D)
- the dragon is a beast, but if a magic user can cast spells at him uncontested for several turns in a row can ruin the game for you...
- dont let the dragon get charged by more than 5 people, otherwise he will probably lose the fight
- its hard to get a good army with the dragon, since he cost so many points, then your probably going to have a small army (and then all teh enemy needs to do is just ignore the dragon and kill the army)
(wont say much more on that as its 1:30am and im really tired :P)

I dont like balrog armies, cause the balrog is so expensive, but so terrible. you just need to feed him a unit a turn, and he has no might to contest that.... then theres teh fact that he is sooooo slow for his points that you wont be able to get him into a spot that would make your 400pts worth it....
(the dragon is all round better, you dont really need teh fight 10, 7 does you fine, str 7 also does your fine, D7 is fine unless its above 700pts.. then you should strongly consider tough hide, dragon has same attacks but gets knock down (so twice as many), wounds isnt better... but i havnt had a problem with the dragons, courage is the only real problem for the dragon... but then you still have 3 might and 3 will....)
so: dragon is about 5x better than the balrog
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Wed May 25, 2011 4:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dragon armies
Thanks for all the tips shadowswarm, i will add in fly and get as many bowmen as i can, the main reason behind not using fly is that it would mean i would send the dragon ahead from the rest of the force which could end up in the dragon being swarmed before any goblins could arrive to back him up but i see why fly is so important :D
Author:  Shadowswarm [ Thu May 26, 2011 2:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dragon armies
He is super hard to kill, and at 700pts id probably get tough hide. then you can do my favorite tactic and charge the dragon into the center of their army XD. cause D9 is stupidly hard to hurt
- when i first used the dragon i was carful to not let him get hurt, but later i realized that you cant really hurt him, so i just charged him into the fray (probably not the best use of him, as he lost alot of fights since he was against 7+ ppl :P), my dragon has been surrounded by 4 khazads, and 3-4 named dwarven heros (while surrounded), lost the fight, and still got out without a scratch.
- the only things that you have to worry about witht the dragon: higher fight value ppl (gil-galad is made to slaugher dragons), or the balrog/ saruon i you play evil vs evil (fight 7 ppl are not nice either as you have a decent chance of losing). magic is the main weakness of the dragon, as a simple tranfix means that your not using like half of your points, and it drains your will ect (and since your F1 A1, every 2h person in the game will attack the dragon ect....)
oh and compel is pretty dangerous since they can move you ect....
Author:  antlion [ Thu May 26, 2011 3:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dragon armies
Having fly doesn't mean you have to fly in head of the rest of your army.
It gives you that option if it is a good idea for the type of game you are playing.

The extra movement isn't the only benefit (though that is certainly very good), it means that the dragon is able to fly over enemies also.
Which is likely to be usefully for sling-shotting into enemy heroes, by flying over the enemy ranks and into them, as Shadowswarm said.
Author:  Shadowswarm [ Thu May 26, 2011 10:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dragon armies
ya, obviously flying head on is often not a good idea, but the dragon w/ fly and tough hide can do that (and often they see that he is surrounded and leave their heros vunerable, then you just call a heroic move and fly out and attack the hero)
one of the nice things you can do is fly directly at the army, they'll see a good opportunity to surround you and thus do so, but you can just fly away, leaving their battleline messed up, and if you do this in several places it will really help when your battleline meets theirs
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Thu May 26, 2011 11:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dragon armies
Yeah, and the dragon would draw alot of fire so my relatively defenseless wargs could be upon the enemy relatively quickly once the dragon has engaged the enemy without having received substantial losses. Also can i just make sure that the dragon can be the leader of the army despite that he is not leading the largest allied contingent? And if yes does this apply to all allied heroes?
Ok heres my idea:

Dragon with fly 300pts
Warg chieftan 75 pts
20 wild wargs 160pts
33 goblins: 16 with bow, 8 with shield, 9 with spear

55 Models, 4 might, 16 bows

Im thinking the plan is get the dragon in their shieldwall or frontline, mess it up a bit, get the dragon out, shoot into the depleted frontline with the goblins as much as possible, move the wargs into the frontline and slingshot the dragon into their archers (if they have seperated their archers) so the goblins can get into the melee without fear of dying, if not slingshot the dragon to behind the frontline to cause more confusion. Once the wargs have been depleted the goblins should be able to arrive and replenish my numbers in combat.

Is this a good plan or is it too risky to have 33 models making their way into combat while my wargs are dying? If so should i be investing in wargs more wargs/giant spiders and is including giant spiders using up too many points that could be spent on numbers or would they be a good replacement for the non shooting goblins?
Author:  General Elessar [ Thu May 26, 2011 1:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dragon armies
SuicidalMarsbar wrote:
Yeah, and the dragon would draw alot of fire


I doubt it; normal bows are going to need 6's followed by 4's to wound. Clever players won't bother trying.
Author:  Shadowswarm [ Fri May 27, 2011 12:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dragon armies
dont waste might heroic moving into archers if you can just move the next turn. the dragons might is EXTREMELY valuble, so use it when you will get a good reward.
killing their heros should be the priority for the dragon (magic users more so)
now killing the archers will be the next best thing cause once their archers are gone your free to move your fast things into the perfect positions (so your wargs can go to the flanks and wait for the gobs to catch up)

so have the dragon make a bee line for their army, attack on the flanks first while making your way to the archers, if you see an opportunity to kill a hero then take it. since you wont have tough hide dont let him get surrounded w/ 6+ ppl on him.
the senario will make a big difference so make sure you focus on that, no point in killing stuff if he has teh objective at the end
as for your army, i would consider dropping some of the wargs for more gobins, as the wargs dont make solid troops unlike teh gobs (drop 5 or something), also, you could get druzhag instead of a warg chieften, then you can more courage and can make any1 of your wargs a killing machine
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Sat May 28, 2011 10:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dragon armies
General Elessar wrote:
SuicidalMarsbar wrote:
Yeah, and the dragon would draw alot of fire


I doubt it; normal bows are going to need 6's followed by 4's to wound. Clever players won't bother trying.


The people i play against arent clever. Besides 12 archers should logically get 2 6's and then one of those should get 4 or more but i understand you.

And @ Shadowswarm there are so many goblin heroes i need to get :p i have durbuz and thats it, but druzhag strikes me as a little risky, he can move as fast as the wargs so alot of them could die before he gets close enough to do anything to hel them but you probably have more experience with him than me, is he worth it? In an army without a dragon i imagine i would take him, a warg chieftan and a spider queen.
Author:  Shadowswarm [ Mon May 30, 2011 2:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dragon armies
he can be worth it, but you have to use him right. he is easy to kill so you need to keep him shielded at all times. in your list he would be more for funsies as compared to durburz. durburz will do his job well, while druzhag might not give you as big as a reward (again, its how you use him, so id stick with durburz)

druzhag as a hero over all is great, and i recommend getting him if you already have beasts (and is alot of fun to play :D)
Author:  General Elessar [ Mon May 30, 2011 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dragon armies
SuicidalMarsbar wrote:
General Elessar wrote:
SuicidalMarsbar wrote:
Yeah, and the dragon would draw alot of fire


I doubt it; normal bows are going to need 6's followed by 4's to wound. Clever players won't bother trying.


The people i play against arent clever. Besides 12 archers should logically get 2 6's and then one of those should get 4 or more but i understand you.


I don't mean to be meticulous, but you seem to have forgotten that the archers have to hit before they can attempt to wound.
Author:  spuds4ever [ Mon May 30, 2011 5:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dragon armies
Yep. Elessar is right. You'll need 24 archers to score 1 wound on the dragon and if it has fly, you'll be very lucky if you get one turn of clear shooting at it. So in practice, archery is not really an issue.
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