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| Siege Engines http://wwww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=20769 |
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| Author: | shmitty [ Fri May 13, 2011 3:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Siege Engines |
From what I have read on here, the use of Siege Engines is generally considered to be sub-par by this community. I am curious to the reasons. I have occasionally fielded one for fun and found them to be pretty effective at breaking up shield wall and pike formations. Has anyone else had any experiences with them? How do you get the most out of them in a game? I've found my Easterlings get a reasonable amount of mileage out of a Siege Bow. |
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| Author: | ForgottenLore [ Fri May 13, 2011 4:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Siege Engines |
In WotR or the SBG? |
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| Author: | shmitty [ Fri May 13, 2011 4:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Siege Engines |
Sorry, SBG |
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| Author: | BlackMist [ Fri May 13, 2011 5:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Siege Engines |
SBG - they're well overpriced for what they do. It's not just this forum, anyone who looks at the simple math behind the artillery effectiveness will probably come out with the same conclusion: Compare a Mordor Siege bow for the same number of points in Orcs - you get 2 (or 3?) models instead of 9 if you don't have a Siege Bow. That means that your break point significantly goes up. Siege bow hits less than once in every 3 shots (cuz 1 for scatter is a miss too), it gets scattered onto a random un-influential model 2/3 of the time and only manages to kill that model 2/3 of the time, so... 1/3 x 2/3 x 2/3 = 4/27 = once every 7 shots it kills a model you weren't aiming for. It only hits and wounds the model you were aiming for 1/3 x 1/6 x 2/3 = 2/54 = 1/27 => once in 27 shots, great! Given that that hit would probably knock 3-4 other models and kill 2, that means it kills *a* model every 4 shots on average? Something like that... completely useless waste of points. Avenger does much better than that with an average of *almost* 1 model per turn. Out of 9 Orcs that you can have for the Siege Bow, 3 can have bows, so 1 will hit and then you get 1 kill every 6 turns with S2, but you have 9 models instead of 1 kill every 4 turns and 3 models. In the case of the Avenger, you can have 9 WoMT, 3 have bows, so once every 4 turns they will cause a kill, and you get again 9 models instead of 3. In summary all artillery other than Mordor War Catapult with Troll and an Engineer is pretty useless. The exception of the Catapult + Troll + Engineer only really works in 600 or 700pts matches, but it rocks at 700 and is a very viable choice. |
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| Author: | spuds4ever [ Fri May 13, 2011 6:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Siege Engines |
In concept nearly all siege engines suck pretty bad. The exceptions are mordor war catapults and trebuches (though catapults more so). They can both pay off in very big matches. |
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| Author: | Beowulf03809 [ Fri May 13, 2011 7:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Siege Engines |
A friend tried several times in SBG to field the Mordor Catapult. It did pay off in 600+ point games with a Troll but anything less than that and it didn't do much for him. I love the look of the Siege Engines, and have used an Uruk Ballista with some value in a 500pt game. I would have been stronger and more secure with additional Uruks instead, but the heavy weapon looked good and was fun and with just a couple above-average rolls it was nice (blasted thru a big rank of RoR once if I remember correctly). If you're playing a game over 500 points and it's mostly for fun, you should give them a try. They can add some fun, flavor and a couple big "wows", either good or bad. But if I was playing in an event, or the game had anything ridding on it other than joy, bragging rights and maybe a beer, I probably wouldn't use it. |
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| Author: | shmitty [ Fri May 13, 2011 7:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Siege Engines |
Thanks for the input. That is about what I expected. Froma pure killing standpoint, they just aren't worth the points. I should mention that when I use a Siege Bow with my Easterlings, I use the points from LoME and an Easterling crew letting it hit on a 4+. I can see an Uruk Ballista having about the same effect. Where they seem to work well is targeting the middle of a shield wall formation. Even with a scatter, 3" should still have it hitting the wall. Then the worst case scenario with a hit it will be knocking models down, which can have a large tactical value. Sort of a much less reliable, but less risky Sorcerous Blast. Also, if you hit a cav model on the worst case the mount is gone due tho the knockdown. I have found the knockdown effect to be a huge asset. But even still, I would not take one to a tourney. Good for fun games and as Beowulf suggested "Wowos" |
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| Author: | cereal_theif [ Fri May 13, 2011 8:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Siege Engines |
YOU ARE ALL MAD!! Mordor catapult manned by Black numenorians with captain = DA BOMB!! Imagine you come against dwarves and you have a S10 hit on Dain, knocking him and all his buddies within 2 inch to the floor AND hurting them with S6 pain ... AND STRIKING AGAINST THEIR COURAGE!!!!! Now consider you come against swan knight... you hit one and all of them fall off their horsies before you resolve the S10 and S6 PAIN!!! I took a catapult to doubles 2 years ago and it was very successful. A worst it failed to be useful on one mission but numenorians are cool A best it caused multiple deaths to a swan knight pike block, forcing them to spread out leaving them as easy picking for my serpent horde (mostly serpent rider F4 poisoned lances) team mate. P.S. it also makes your numeorians 1pt cheaper... |
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