Golden King, Suladan, Wraith, Hasharin/Dalamyr.

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"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

Come back in 50 games time and try to claim that Fight Value is NOT the most important statistic in the game Fight Value and Attacks is all that matters, strength and defence are secondary (you kill at the same rate with more dice as if you had higher strength and you don't need defence if you don't lose fights), Courage on Warriors doesn't matter when you have the right heroes and Wounds higher than 1 are rare.

The point of winning isn't only to try to inflict damage, but as Cereal Theif rightly points out it is also not to lose a model.

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Coordinator of the Great British Hobbit League

Suladan 2nd? Really? He doesn't look that great, I'm looking at the book now, what makes him that good? I must add by the way that I'm transferring over from WOTR, so still not upto scratch with what's great and what's just okay.

I'd say Golden King, Wraith on Fell Beast, 2 Chieftains. I wouldn't waste points on Hasharin and Suladan isn't essential if you have a Fell Beast fighter.

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Coordinator of the Great British Hobbit League

To be honest, I'm always getting confused as to what to collect to be any good at this game. Maybe I will take your advice. I keep getting caught up into trying to get high strength pieces to kill kill kill, but still lose. Maybe it's time I changed tactics and go for the higher fight and attacks guys. x

From what you've been saying in this thread so far you definitely need to either use supported Abrakhan Guard or supported Reavers. If you're playing mainly against F3 Abrakhans will be enough, but if your opponents field a lot of F4 and D7 then Reavers are most suitable. AG are great against F3/D6, but they're mediocre against F4/D7. Reavers are overpriced against F3/D6, but are perfect against F4/D7. Doing a mix won't work because you're losing 50% bows rule if you add Reavers, so you really have to choose either one or the other.

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Coordinator of the Great British Hobbit League

They constantly change the armies they play, so it's difficult really to choose one over the other.when you say support either of them, what would you support them with? x

Suladan is a dirt cheap hero who can take on most any warriors and most captain level heros thrown his way rather easily, so he'll be able to pay his points back rather quickly. He also gives you another hero for a warband. AG aren't useless against F4/D7. While they might not win quite so as much as Reavers, they'll wound as much and you can have more of them.

Blackmist is only talking in terms of tourneys, you don't need to have Reavers to have fun and win. IMO, Reavers are overpriced. I'm not saying they aren't effective, just overpriced. They should, pointswise, have throwing weapons, in which case, I would have a few as allies.

_________________
"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

I'm not talking only in terms of tournaments, I'm talking in terms of what works and wins, regardless of where you play (I don't see why tournament strategy wouldn't apply to non-tournament games? After all objectives are the same.). My comparison of AG against F4/D7 is that essentially they kill them at the same rate as Reavers after winning, but win less often, hence being far worse against F4/D7 than Reavers (my term useless meaning 'worse by comparison' in this case. You might as well then field Serpent Warriors, who at least get a re-roll to wound and win fights just as often). I also don't think Reavers are overpriced at all, the F5/A2 is priceless.

All I'm saying here is that clearly everybody agrees on AG, but I'm trying to make a case for Reavers being even better in some situations. It just depends on the opponent. Ultimately you have to choose one or the other and both have their drawbacks (Reavers can't have 50% bows and AG are not as good against F4/D5/D7, which happens to be common among Dwarves, Orcs, Goblins, Rohan and Gondor elites, while D4/D6 is more common among Uruks, Gondor WoMT, Elves, Morannon forces. It just depends what you face).

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Coordinator of the Great British Hobbit League

I understand what you mean, I'm just saying that if you aren't only concerned about winning, stick with AG. Also, Serpent Guards can't compare to AG in any situation except supporting. Rerolling 1s (or even 2s if you have the Betrayer) is not at all the same as +1 to wound.

_________________
"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

I think all the Profile stats in the game have their place but from my experience (far more than 50 games, but I understand what you mean about getting water under your bridge) I wouldn't say Fight is the most important. It only comes into play on a tie which does happen many times during the game but not THAT many. I would rather put numbers into a Fight both to increase the odds of getting a higher roll as well as increasing the number of dice being cast to Wound.

Additionally, I'll generally take a +1 to Wound over a point higher Strength most of the time. The Strength / Defense Wound Chart is not linear and so it takes 2 to shift one. But the +1 to Wound jumps those. Str 3 vs. D6/D7 needs a 6. Go to Str4 and the D6 comes to a 5 but you still need a 6 against the D7. However, if you have that +1 you only need a 5 to Wound either D6 or D7. Normally you have to mix a 2H and 1H in the same combat in order to minimize the impact of the 2H on winning the Fight, but when you have a model that can give you +1 without a -1 Fight roll penalty it makes a big difference.

I don't account for 'poison' weapons as anything more than candy. Nice if it's there but it doesn't factor into my planning for the most part. In many cases the models that have it will need a 6 to Wound many common foes. The poison only helps if you botch the roll with a '1' and then only by giving you another chance to score the only number that CAN Wound. Now a 'reroll if you fail to Wound' is a different story, or if you bring along the Betrayer (?) that allows better rerolls. But typically I don't look at poison weapons as a major bonus.

Just my opinions from my own play style. Often the stats and values we find most important will be based on our play style and that of our typical opponents and what supports that best.

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Wait ye the finish! The fight is not yours.
Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

I agree, Serpents are obsolete, but against F4/D7 they are better than AG

Thinking about it more... Reavers tend to win so many fights that your opponents will start throwing dice at you out of fury of your "luck", so maybe it's better to stick to AG just to keep them happy


Probably the most optimal support unit would be Serpent Warriors because they keep up F4 in case you're Fainting and they get to re-roll to wound rolls. But I wouldn't go out splashing money on them, they're of no major benefit. Stick to Haradrim with Spears.

@Beowulf who posted seconds before I pressed submit:
Draw in a 1v1 is once every 6 fights. Draw in a 2v2 is in one in 5 fights. In a 3v2 (supported Reaver) the chances of you winning grow rapidly thanks to Fight Value. I probably don't have to quote the stats for you, but for anyone who doesn't know 2v2 higher Fight is 61% chance of winning, 3v2 with higher Fight is 72% chance and this is a supported Reaver against every warrior except Elves. This cannot be underestimated and it's a pretty major part of the game in my view. The whole point why Heroes are so good is their Fight skill. 3 Attacks at FX beat 10 attacks at FX-1 staggering 47% of the fights, while if you had same fight you'd win 27% and with lower Fight 7%.

I agree with the +1 to wound, but the AG are not quite the same as 2-handed or 1-handed support. You can be unsupported +1 to wound, which will lose fights a lot more often or you can go with just S4 supported which imho is a better solution for most of the situations. It depends on the situation, I never said they're bad, I think they're very good.

I also agree with Poison not being of much use.

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Coordinator of the Great British Hobbit League

All that is false. In the new rules supporters use their special rules and F, 2handed weapons can be supported, and in no way are SG better than AG against F4/D7.
The first point, SG are great when you have them supporting, they contribute 1 F4 poisoned attack to the fight and can hold their own when the model they're supporting gets killed.
Second point, 2handers can be supported, so AG ALWAYS have +1 to wound, even when supported.
Third, AG have the exact same chance of winning (and surviving if they lose) against F4/D7, yet have a 1/3 (12/36) chance of wounding vs a 7/36 chance for SG. SG aren't obsolete, they just fill a different roll now.

_________________
"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

Ahh, apologies in that case, I completely forgot about the new rule for supporting two handed weapons, so cancel my argument about Serpents being better or anywhere near as good as AG. Which doesn't counter the fact that:
- Supported Reaver wins and kills an F4/S3/D7 model 30% of combats and gets killed 16%.
- Supported AG (with one +1 and one normal attack) wins and kills 22% of combats and gets killed 28%.
whilst...
- Supported Reaver wins and kills an F3/S3/D6 model also 30% of combats and gets killed 16%
- Supported AG wins and kills 35% and gets killed 22%

This means that statistically Reaver is vastly superior against F4/D7 models and is slightly better against F3/D6 (slightly better meaning that his ratio of killing to dying in the latter is 1.9 to 1 compared to AG's ratio of 1.6 to 1). Of course both can now use the Axe rule which actually works as an advantage for Reavers because of double the number of attacks at higher strength (except you have to do a lot of converting and with AG you don't).
AG are great, but Reavers just can't be classed as any worse in my view. Combat potential stands for Reavers, but points and bows limit stands for AG, they just have different purpose for the type of the army they are used within.

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Coordinator of the Great British Hobbit League

GOlden king is the best
Taskmaster
Ringwraith on fellbeast would be next or sulladen

You will need some spears in your army. Especially for the abrakhan guard because you only have 1 attack in each combat.

I would advise away from Hasharin.

Would the best option be to have an Abrakhan Guard and a reaver into one attack? Make sure you win, giving the AG more chance to wound

You are unlikely to get 2 models from a horde army in base to base with models from a clever person's army.

If I were playing vs a horder I would anchor on a terrain piece and smash your 1 attack army.

Where as if you have spears you can come against my shield wall with more confidence.

You also have to take into account the fact that you can have 20% more AG than Reavers. Yes, Reavers are good, it's just that they seem to be a little overpriced. If they had throwing weapons, THEN I would say they are great.

_________________
"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

What do you need to do to convert some Cosairs to Reavers?

Easy: trim most of the shield off the shield hand, but leave the boss. File down a flat spot and glue on a blade (I used the extra blades in the Easterling cavalry box), glue the pommel from the blade to the bottom of the hand, and voila! Instant cutlass.