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I hate harry potter, is it a Tolkein rip-off?
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Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:52 am ]
Post subject:  I hate harry potter, is it a Tolkein rip-off?
Does anyone else really hate harry potter with a passion, to me it just seems like such a cheap knock off of lotr for many reasons, and the writing and storytelling is honestly no better than what i have heard about twilight? My main problem is that everyone treats it like it is the litereary equivalent of pure adamantium, when it really ain't so great!

I get in constant arguments with friends who actually have the cheek to claim Harry Potter is the better universe even though the whole thing ius a kid friendly tolkein rip-off.

Incase your wondering what i seeas a tolkein rip off; well alot of the character models/set pieces are similar, here is a list:
Sam Gamgee - Ron Weasely
Grima Wormtongue- Wormtail
Harry - Frodo (both have dead parents, feel 'burdened' by their links to their respective dark lords)
Sauron - Voldemort (this is the most criminal one IMO)
Gandalf/Saruman - Dumbledore
Ents - Weeping Willow
Shelob- Aragog (even named similarly to shelob...)

These are all minor things that i guess pop up in every book but the fact that the 'plot' of HP is that the 'dark lord' is obsessed and fixated over objects he has poured his soul into is not only a rip off (especially considering all the similarities surrounding the character of voldemort to sauron) but she writes in 10 damn magic items for the kids to find just to drag it out, 3 of which are only introduced in the last book, just the sign of a bad writer.

This is something i can argue about all day, if you want to defend harry potter, step right up, if you want to point out more rip-offs, step right :)
Author:  Hashut's Blessing [ Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I really hate harry potter, it's a tolkein rip off.
http://www.inquisitr.com/wp-content/201 ... 00x385.jpg

Enjoy.
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I really hate harry potter, it's a tolkein rip off.
Hashut's Blessing wrote:
http://www.inquisitr.com/wp-content/2012/12/68920_458060707564143_850104568_n-600x385.jpg

Enjoy.


No no no no why do people exist?
Author:  Jamros [ Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I really hate harry potter, it's a tolkein rip off.
The appeal of the Harry Potter universe in-print in Rowling's writing. She sucks you in and makes her stories addictive, especially for the target audience. The pubescent romance, relationship and friendship troubles, political intrigue, school problems, etc, are all relatable, even if you would actually feel weird reading about those subjects (like most males). But before you have the chance to question what you're reading, the books throw in a dash of magic. Even if I don't normally like teenage angst stories or the fantasy genre employed in a real setting, Rowling's writing style is very, very readable, unlike Tolkien, who at times can get very heavy. Her writing allowed her to craft a distinct world that is both accessible and appealing. The films, though rather poor imo, are likewise very watchable. The "magic" faded for me with the 7th and final book, however, which I felt complicated the plot, cheesed things up even more than they already were, and lacked the general vibe and feel of the previous novels.

Did Rowling copy Tolkien? Rowling was, I think, trying to employ the fantasy genre widely in her novels and portray a world in which the myths we've grown up with exist hidden in plain sight. In that sense, the existence of fantasy creatures, etc, belonging to both sagas is not blatant copying. But, many of Rowling's specific plot devices do mirror that of Tolkien's. Horcruxes vs the One Ring, for example. I would agree with some (not all) of what you listed. The thing is, even if some characters seem mirrored, Harry Potter never gives off the same vibe as LotR. By their nature, they feel very different. They might both have giant spiders--you might even pause and say, "Did Rowling just copy this concept from Tolkien?"--but Aragog is really unlike Shelob. Likewise the two Dark Lords and two old, kindly wizards feel like completely distinct characters.

So, imo, yes, Rowling copied Tolkien but shaped her pastings for her own devices (ie, not a blatant rip-off). And the guy who wrote the paragraph has got to be trolling :)
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I really hate harry potter, it's a tolkein rip off.
SuicidalMarsbar wrote:
Does anyone else really hate harry potter with a passion, to me it just seems like such a cheap knock off of lotr for many reasons, and the writing and storytelling is honestly no better than what i have heard about twilight? My main problem is that everyone treats it like it is the litereary equivalent of pure adamantium, when it really ain't so great!

I get in constant arguments with friends who actually have the cheek to claim Harry Potter is the better universe even though the whole thing ius a kid friendly tolkein rip-off.

Incase your wondering what i seeas a tolkein rip off; well alot of the character models/set pieces are similar, here is a list:
Sam Gamgee - Ron Weasely
Grima Wormtongue- Wormtail
Harry - Frodo (both have dead parents, feel 'burdened' by their links to their respective dark lords)
Sauron - Voldemort (this is the most criminal one IMO)
Gandalf/Saruman - Dumbledore
Ents - Weeping Willow
Shelob- Aragog (even named similarly to shelob...)

These are all minor things that i guess pop up in every book but the fact that the 'plot' of HP is that the 'dark lord' is obsessed and fixated over objects he has poured his soul into is not only a rip off (especially considering all the similarities surrounding the character of voldemort to sauron) but she writes in 10 damn magic items for the kids to find just to drag it out, 3 of which are only introduced in the last book, just the sign of a bad writer.

This is something i can argue about all day, if you want to defend harry potter, step right up, if you want to point out more rip-offs, step right :)

Also i have a video (includes some cussing) up on y youtube channel on this very topic. I plan on re-editing it etc with even more points included so please give me more fuel!


GRRRRRRR! Mr Marsbar! :x

No :no: Harry Potter sis not a rip off of LotR. There will be a few similarities since all post-Tolkien fantasy (which is most of it) wil sgare some similarities with Tolkien's works to be a fantasy. He revived the genre.

Do not compare Ron Weasley and Sam Gangee. they are not the same. I love both for who they are seperatly (in a platonic way), they are not the same. In fact the only thing the smae is that Ron and Sam are better than Harry and Frodo. Who are also not alike.

As Jamros says, she does 'copy' one of two plot elemennts but Aragog and Shelob in particular are nothing alike as individuals. If you were to go down that road, you can say that Aragorn and Turin are obviously very similar because they are both humans.

The fantasy races don't make it copying. You can't copyright certain species. And most of these Tolkien himself copied from other things. Wargs are just a (I think Scandanavian) word for Wolf, Orccomes from the Olf English word for 'Horde' and how many older fantasies have things like Goblins, Elves, Dwarves etc..

Also, it is not the Weeping Willow, it is the Whomping Willow, and it is more like Old Willow from FotR.

Also, since when did Tolkien have Owl mail, schools, focus on relationships of teenagers (in fact when did Tolkien ever acknowledge the importance of anyone before they are an adult?). Also where is Umbridge etc?

That guy is probably Trolling, the only people who think LotR copied harry Potter are people who didn't read the books. And most of those still know.

Also, just because they are the same genre doesn't mean they are copying; are all crime novels rip offs of other crime novels etc...?
Author:  Draugluin [ Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I really hate harry potter, it's a tolkein rip off.
I wouldn't call it a ripoff, but it did have many similarities. However, the writing in the books was subpar, and the movies were definitely nothing amazing. I like the back story, but the characters are some of the worst (other than Bella from Twilight) in the known universe. The movies portray Harry a bit better, but in the books, I don't understand how anyone would be able to stand him.
Author:  Amarthadan [ Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I really hate harry potter, it's a tolkein rip off.
I'm not alone I see. ;)
Author:  whafrog [ Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I really hate harry potter, it's a tolkein rip off.
I actually kind of liked the HP books, when the last one came out I started reading at 1pm, and read straight through to 1am that night.

As for "similarities", doesn't every fantasy story have these elements? Had you been a teen in the 70s, not only did every fantasy book have these elements, the back covers proclaimed them *all* to be "the next" LoTR. You could almost weed out the bad ones when they were described as "reminiscent of..."

I think Rowling put a different spin on things, enough to make something unique, with character dilemmas that suited her world context. And like some people say, there is little new under the sun, just new spins on old stories. I'm sure we're they alive today, the old Scandanavian saga writers would be complaining about this "upstart" Tolkien and his blatant rip offs.
Author:  Erunion [ Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I really hate harry potter, it's a tolkein rip off.
Harry Potter = Jesus. That is the comparison that I see in Rowling's world.

I say this as an ordained minister and mean it in a completely non-heretical way. Just think about it.

Also, this forum is scared of religious discussions, so I'm not trying to start one.
Author:  goblin_king [ Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I really hate harry potter, it's a tolkein rip off.
Harry Potter takes things from an awful lot of places. Tolkien is seen as part of a tradition in Fantasy literature. D&D, Warhammer and Warcraft are all large I.P's, each incluiding Orcs, Wizards, Great Eagles, human-height elves...

Harry Potter is a childrens book, that draws more on incorrectly described Mythological beasts and folklore.

I'm not a fan of it myself and I agree that elements are taken from here there and everywhere, but I think it is on a slightly higher pedestal than Twilight! In fact, almost to the point where if I had kids, I would probably read it to them.
Author:  TheBucklandBrewer [ Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I really hate harry potter, it's a tolkein rip off.
I treat them all seperately...

Tolkien was one of the fantasy pioneers, so many fantasy-stories are in a way a sideway of his, or Terry Brooks' or Terry Pratchett's.

Other then that, The Hobbit was written for kids, just like Harry Potter was.
Lord of the Rings is more for adults, while Twilight is written for youth (and because of the romance it hits more the female readers then the male ones).
So to me, it'sjust impossible to speak of all this, it's all directed to different ages and kinda readers.

What the movies make of it is just the directors way of attracting a certain crowd, and movies can't follow books for 100% cause it's a totally different world to explain a story.

To me, fantasy comes with different worlds and creatures, just like science fiction comes with stars and galaxies and aliens... it's all part of the genre.
Author:  SouthernDunedain [ Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I really hate harry potter, it's a tolkein rip off.
I grew up reading the HP books and loved them all. What fantasy story doesnt have an evil dark lord trying to take over the world? :roll:
Author:  The Horde Lord [ Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I really hate harry potter, it's a tolkein rip off.
Harry Potter ripping of Tolkien? No. But it still sucks. Tolkien wasn't the first to invent a horocrux(?) either: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koschei. Allthe other stuff that has been mentioned are just stretching it.
Author:  Elessar Telcontar [ Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I really hate harry potter, it's a tolkein rip off.
SuicidalMarsbar wrote:
she writes in 10 damn magic items for the kids to find just to drag it out, 3 of which are only introduced in the last book, just the sign of a bad writer.

Have you read the Harry Potter books recently? Because when the Horcruxes were introduced, two of them had already been found. 7-2=5, 5+3=8. "The kids" were searching for eight magic items, not ten. And Harry was the only one who actually wanted to find the Deathly Hallows, so "the kids" were searching for five magic items.

Okay, you hate Harry Potter. That's fine. I am personally a fan of both LotR and HP, but I can't tell you what to like. But really - J.K. Rowling is a bad writer because she introduces something new in the last book in the series? In that case Tolkien is a bad writer as well because he did not introduce Shelob and the Mouth of Sauron in the Fellowship of the Ring.
Author:  Mothball [ Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I really hate harry potter, it's a tolkein rip off.
Why not just enjoy both?

Saying that Harry Potter is a lotr rip off is about as ridiculous as Sylvester McCoy's character in the Hobbit.
Author:  MeatBoy1994 [ Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I really hate harry potter, it's a tolkein rip off.
I only liked Harry Potter coz Hermione was sexy. :rofl:
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I really hate harry potter, it's a tolkein rip off.
MeatBoy1994 wrote:
I only liked Harry Potter coz Hermione was sexy. :rofl:


This i have never understood.

SouthernDunedain wrote:
I grew up reading the HP books and loved them all. What fantasy story doesnt have an evil dark lord trying to take over the world? :roll:


Game Of Thrones.

GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:
Also, since when did Tolkien have Owl mail, schools, focus on relationships of teenagers (in fact when did Tolkien ever acknowledge the importance of anyone before they are an adult?).


Since when did anything with the mad respect Harry Potter receives? It's a bit like Tracy Beaker with wands and owls.

@Gothmog: I agree with you and everyone else saying that every fantasy books have certain elements in them, and that it is not a crime to include them. Yes i know that those little similarities aren't a watertight argument to criticize harry potter with, but out of the few things Rowling actually creates, almost none of them act as anything but a gimmick, the books all seem to hinge on the stuff she has copied and pasted such as horocruxes. If anyone wants to prove me wrong i have a copy of her "Fantastic Beasts & Where To Find Them", and if someone can direct me to something that she created and is not just labelled as 'Irish Dragon' or 'The borneo fairy' i would be much obliged.

Also just to re-iterate if it wasn't clear enough; i hate what Harry Potter has become an awful lot more than the books themselves. The fact that the vast majority of people will see it holding more literary value than any of Tolkein's work is what annoys me, and that is what drives me to start discussions like this.

Another thing that is subjectively affecting my opinion is the fact that Harry Potter is so closely linked to my nationality by the rest of the world. All over the internet one of the top things people instantly link to the uk is Harry Potter which, for someone in my position, is kinda annoying.
Author:  Joansean [ Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I really hate harry potter, it's a tolkein rip off.
SuicidalMarsbar wrote:
Hashut's Blessing wrote:
http://www.inquisitr.com/wp-content/2012/12/68920_458060707564143_850104568_n-600x385.jpg

Enjoy.


No no no no why do people exist?


I think (and secretly hope) that that is a brilliant piece of sarcasm.
Author:  Telchar [ Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I really hate harry potter, it's a tolkein rip off.
SuicidalMarsbar wrote:
MeatBoy1994 wrote:
I only liked Harry Potter coz Hermione was sexy. :rofl:


This i have never understood. Me neither

SouthernDunedain wrote:
I grew up reading the HP books and loved them all. What fantasy story doesnt have an evil dark lord trying to take over the world? :roll:


Game Of Thrones. You might see the Great Other in this role. And otherwise, that is one series (though a very cool one) in a huge genre.

GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:
Also, since when did Tolkien have Owl mail, schools, focus on relationships of teenagers (in fact when did Tolkien ever acknowledge the importance of anyone before they are an adult?).


Since when did anything with the mad respect Harry Potter receives? It's a bit like Tracy Beaker with wands and owls. Huh?

@Gothmog: I agree with you and everyone else saying that every fantasy books have certain elements in them, and that it is not a crime to include them. Yes i know that those little similarities aren't a watertight argument to criticize harry potter with, but out of the few things Rowling actually creates, almost none of them act as anything but a gimmick, the books all seem to hinge on the stuff she has copied and pasted such as horocruxes. If anyone wants to prove me wrong i have a copy of her "Fantastic Beasts & Where To Find Them", and if someone can direct me to something that she created and is not just labelled as 'Irish Dragon' or 'The borneo fairy' i would be much obliged.

The difference between LotR and HP is not between the actual objects (though there are many such things, for instance Quiddich, Hogwarts, the Ministry of Magic, the Prophecies, the Deathly Hallows, Thestrals, etc. and Tolkien also copied many things out of Norse and Saxon mythologies) but in the focus of the books. LotR is very much a tale of a quest, with a very linear good-evil division, and a lot of heroics and war-tales. Harry Potter is about growing up, love, political intigues and a "shadow war" against the dark side, where no-one acnowledges the dangers until it's too late.

Also just to re-iterate if it wasn't clear enough; i hate what Harry Potter has become an awful lot more than the books themselves. The fact that the vast majority of people will see it holding more literary value than any of Tolkein's work is what annoys me, and that is what drives me to start discussions like this.

I doubt anyone who has read both could say that Harry Potter has more literary value then LotR, but even if you're right that doesn't make Harry Potter a bad book, it just means that those people have a very different (and very, very debatable) opinion.

Another thing that is subjectively affecting my opinion is the fact that Harry Potter is so closely linked to my nationality by the rest of the world. All over the internet one of the top things people instantly link to the uk is Harry Potter which, for someone in my position, is kinda annoying.


I can see your point, but again, that is the fault of the people, not Harry Potter. And it's better to be connected to Harry Potter then to being blunt, coarse and mean.
Author:  goblin_king [ Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I really hate harry potter, it's a tolkein rip off.
Uhm... I have never had the fact that I am from the Uk immediately relate to Harry Potter. However, I have had a girl from the US contact me because she thought I lived near Canterbury, wondering if I had ever met Orlando Bloom there... She'd never heard of Oxford (where I was living at the time) though!

Frankly, I think it depends on the fan. Tolkien is closely associated with Oxford, so is CS Lewis and Harry Potter as much of the films were made there. Birmingham is close to me now and has associations with Tolkien as his birthplace as well...

Sorry, I really don't get your point!
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