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Foighoile! - And how the Dunlendings are Gaels.
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Author:  aelfwine [ Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:28 am ]
Post subject:  Foighoile! - And how the Dunlendings are Gaels.
It's a pretty common assertion - the Dunlendings are to the Scots or the Ancient Irish as the Rohirrim are to the old English as the Eotheod are to the Goths. This assumption turns on the word "Foirghoile" which is mentioned in the Two Towers, as the Dunlending's word for the Rohirrim.

Strawheads, they call us, say the Rohirrim.

The problem being is that while Foirghoille is clearly some sort of Irish word, it's not actually a word in modern Irish. Bit problematic when lots of (for example) RPG material takes the idea and runs with it.

Various etymologies have been suggested. None were convincing.

Then, by accident, yesterday, I was looking through a glossary of early Irish terms. And right there, foir. What does foir mean? Straw. What does ghoile mean? I figure its an older version of "foreigner" (the Irish scribes of the middle ages described the vikings as "ghall" or "foreigner").

So, the good professor, devious git that he is, snuck in not a modern Irish word, because heavens, no, that's easy. Nope, its a 6th century Irish word. To go with his sixth century English heroes.

I felt like kicking myself, after.

Certainly proves that no, the Dunlendings are not Vikings, GW. :p Not to mention that Huscarl is not a Norse term, its an old English (from just before Hastings) term.

So there.
Author:  pownrwhopowns [ Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Foighoile! - And how the Dunlendings are Gaels.
Hmmm interesting, I always thought of the rohirrim as Vikings though, since they're literally ALL BLOND..maybe norman

what do you think gondor is race-wise? I always thought of them as spanish/roman soldiers
Author:  aelfwine [ Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Foighoile! - And how the Dunlendings are Gaels.
Well, the older English were Angles, Frisians, that sort of thing. They were blond too :)

Interestingly, I think the Gondorians are fantasy-Rome, but Minas Tirith is fantasy-Byzantium. The description of the Siege of Gondor is redolent of the story of the fall of Constantinople (aka Byzantium) in the 1400s. The backstory of Gondor and its wars also connects us to the real world story of the Pechenegs (an eastern tribe of raiders who rode large wagons aka "wains")

Constantinople/Byzantium also connects us in other ways. The emperor of Constantinople was guarded by a bunch of Viking warriors (Varangians), who were originally Swedish. Later, however, the ethnic composition changed, and the Varangians were largely English.

And, my favourite, "Varangian" is a slavic word, for Viking, or the Swedes. (Another word was Rus, hence Russia). But the eastern slavic word for Varangians?

Variag. Sound familiar?
Author:  pownrwhopowns [ Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Foighoile! - And how the Dunlendings are Gaels.
Isn't Minas Tirith still a little too light to be from a place like Byazntium? However, despite appearances, I do like the compassion between constantinople and the Turks, fighting at constantinople.
who do you think vikings represent?
Author:  Dorthonion [ Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Foighoile! - And how the Dunlendings are Gaels.
The architecture of Minas Tirith as portrayed in the films is a mixture of Italian and Dubrovnik - there are times when you find little nooks and crannies or details that just shout 'Gondor!'
Author:  aelfwine [ Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Foighoile! - And how the Dunlendings are Gaels.
pownrwhopowns wrote:
Isn't Minas Tirith still a little too light to be from a place like Byazntium? However, despite appearances, I do like the compassion between constantinople and the Turks, fighting at constantinople.
who do you think vikings represent?


Well the real world Vikings were Norwegians, Frisians, Swedes, and Danes. They were distantly akin and linguistically related to the Goths. The Goths show up in Middle-earth as the ancestors of the Rohirrim - the Eotheod. The Eotheod names are all Gothic, as Christopher Tolkien points out. The Rohirrim speak an anglo-saxon dialect, so there's some Danish influence there. The men of Dale are probably close to the Rus, the Swedes who kinda-sorta founded Russia. Of course the Dwarves have Norwegian names as their "external" names, (Thror, Gimli, Thorin, etc), so there's a bit more Viking action.

So, no-real direct Vikings, but traces of their influence in the Rohirrim and likely Men of Dale as well as the obvious Dwarves
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