The One Ring
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What if...
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Author:  boromir_of_ithilien [ Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:00 pm ]
Post subject:  What if...
Hey guys, I was just thinking of some "What if" scenarios, not neccesarily for the game of anything. I was just curious about some things in the whole lore.

For example, what would have happened if Faramir went to the Council of Elrond instead of Boromir? The whole scene at Amon Hen might have not even happened. Also, instead of Sam, Merry, and Pippin, who else would have joined the Fellowship if they hadn't spied on the Council? Would it have been Glorfindel? Or maybe some other characters like Erestor or Haldir?

Just wanted to make this topic to see what you guys think. 8)
Feel free to post your own questions or anything!
Author:  Martinus [ Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What if...
What if Sauron got his ring.

when frodo sam and smeagol where fighting in mount doom and his wringwraiths where in time to intercept and capture sam and frodo.
Aragorn and the rest fighting at the gate got captured and taken prisoner.

later Aragorn and the rest ( as in the hobbits , gandalf etc) escaped and started a rebelion :P wouldnt be fun if sauron didnt have some thing to fight does it :P )

so many ideas! evil must win!:P
Author:  Draugluin [ Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What if...
I think it's fair to assume that Faramir wouldn't have been corrupted, and Boromir would have kept hold of Osgiliath. The Fellowship probably wouldn't have broken like it did, Sauron would have had a much bigger fight on his hands before even reaching Minas Tirith. Since the Fellowship never went to Rohan, Rohan is completely under Saruman's control. Since they never got reinforcements, Minas Tirith would fall after a much longer fight over Osgiliath. The Fellowship would have been captured when they neared the Black Gate (that many people, especially big people would have been spotted). So pretty much, if Faramir had gone, Sauron would have won. Similar scenario if Gandalf hadn't died.
Author:  typhoon2 [ Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What if...
Glorfindel et al would have been better used as a distraction, especially since he pretty much glowed in the dark! The Fellowship was only able to escape Sauron's spies and agents by taking an unexpected route (Sauron was more concerned about the One Ring going into or over the sea, or possibly being used by a hero) and the patrolling of Elrond's sons and other Elf lords.

Boromir would no more have been able to hold Osgiliath than his brother, since the troops fled in the face of the Witch King. In fact he mway well have been too brave - Faramir was a pragmatist who would have retreated but I can imagine Boromir staying to fight and falling. The Fellowship would not have fallen apart so dramatically but who knows what route the members would have taken? Some to Mordor, some to Minas Tirith is the most likely split, leaving some seriously unhappy Uruk-Hai, Orcs and Goblins on the far bank!

Rohan could have been saved to some extent since Gandalf would have focused his efforts on Theoden and not sought the Fellowship. However, the campaign would almost certainly have been lost since the Ents would not have been stirred up. Minas Tirith would have been deprived of the glorious charge into one Mordor flank and of course Aragorn would not have taken the Paths of the Dead so no Grey Company either. Bad news for Minas Tirith, even with Gimli, Merry and Pippin defending the walls! The build-up in Mordor would not have been disrupted by Faramir's clever efforts although others might have come close.

Of course Sauron's assault on Gondor would not necessarily have come when it did. With no challenge to his authority via the Palantir, Sauron could leisurely have built up his forces still further. This would have implications for the Ringbearer, with no distractions like marching to or running a war, but maybe for gathering in reinforcements for Minas Tirith.
Author:  Draugluin [ Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What if...
I think that Boromir could have held at least the western half of Osgiliath, as you said the main thrust of Sauron's forces wouldn't likely have come as quickly, giving his men time to rest. And of course it's Boromir, his men wouldn't have fled, they would have fought to the last man. Granted, they would have eventually all died, but they would have held on much longer.
Author:  WhoelsebutHaldir [ Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What if...
I could kind of see faramir rallying what was left of gondors northern fiefdoms, and marching to the aid of rohan(advised by gandalf) with the aid of most of the fellowship. Frodo probably would have left just the same though maybe farther down the bank of the anduin. I don't think the hornburg would have fallen with faramir helping. Though with no rising of the ents, the remnants of the rohhirim would have to lay seige to isengard or leave a guarding force.What was left of the troops would rally to Minas tirith. The grey company may have joined them(I don't quite remember how that passage goes). But the southern fiefdoms would still be overrun because of the lack of the ghostly army scaring them away. The reinforcements from umbar would have arrived. The city would have most likely fallen. Though some survivors would have fled, probably to Rohan. if it did not fall, what was left of the soldiers would go back to secure isengard, and the rest of the fiefdoms. There would be no march on the black gate, frodo would have failed, middle earth would have fallen...

What do you think?
Now I'm trying to think of a way events could have occurred differently and yet still succeed:)
Author:  Draugluin [ Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What if...
Don't bother, there is literally no other way itt could have happened without Sauron winning.
Author:  Glorfindriel [ Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What if...
I would just like to touch briefly on one aspect of this discussion, if I may.
I've often seen the argument that someone like Glorfindel, or even just the Nine Walkers would never have made it into Mordor due to group-size/prominence/visibility. I think this is based on false assumptions and neglects evidence, both specific and circumstantial, to the contrary.

The idea seems to be that those of great power and presence are unable hide it when they wish. But there are many instances of this in the writings.

For example, Finrod Felagund and his companions disguise themselves as orcs to gain entrance to the lands under Sauron’s power (“and by the magic of Finrod their own forms and faces were changed to the likeness of Orcs.”). They are in fact detected in the end but this through poor behaviour-defaults not due to unchecked brilliance of spirit or power. Note, Finrod would be even more ‘shiny’ than Glorfindel.

In another example, Gandalf surreptitiously enters Dol Guldur while Sauron and his minions are abiding there – and Maia surely are shinier than even the most powerful Lord of the Eldar.
Think too, that even mere cloaks crafted by the Elves and donned by men and Hobbits offer the latter much aid in evading the attentions of those who seek them.

Beren and Luthien fool Morgoth himself, gaining entrance to Angband and even to his very presence. Although the corrupted Vala there strips Luthien of her disguise, Beren remains undetected.

Gondolin, packed with shiny Elves of the highest order, long eluded The First Dark Lord’s constant attempts to discover it.

In short, disguise, not just of physical appearance but of spirit and power was an ability many of the great and powerful possessed in great measure. Thus arguably somebody like Glorfindel would have if anything been able to aid the Ringbearer in non-detection while in Mordor.

Keep in mind: while the Hunt for the Ring was of paramount importance to Sauron, he never considered that the Free Peoples would approach Mordor to seek to destroy it – he assumed they would try to find a way to wield it.

Lastly The Council if Elrond chose the Fellowship precisely to enter Mordor, so those who think that Frodo and Sam were somehow better able to complete the quest alone are arguably assuming they have a better idea of what was feasible than Elrond, Gandalf, et al.
Author:  WhoelsebutHaldir [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What if...
@ Draugluin
Why do you say that?
Author:  Ardboe [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What if...
I always imagined that if Saruman was victorious at helms deep he would continue to build his forces, grab the ring and defeat Sauron. Think about it, he knew who had the ring whereas sauron didnt. So while mordor's armies were busy sacking Gondor 10,000 uruks would have scooped up frodo. Thats my two cents anyway!
Author:  Glorfindriel [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What if...
I believe Tolkien did say Saruman with the ring (or one of his own making, was it?) would have been even more powerful than Sauron. But by the time of Helm's Deep it was too late as the Ringbearer was just outside Mordor...
Author:  Draugluin [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What if...
WhoelsebutHaldir wrote:
@ Draugluin
Why do you say that?

Because I've spent a lot of time thinking about what would have happened if X hadn't, and every time it seems that evil wins.
Author:  Pindergorn [ Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What if...
Draugluin wrote:
Don't bother, there is literally no other way itt could have happened without Sauron winning.


Never thought I'd say this, but I agree with Draugluin. :shock: The Lord of the Rings is a great example of the Butterfly Effect, in that small changes might lead to hugely different outcomes.

IMO it all hinges on Boromir. If Boromir had remained in Gondor and Faramir sent in his stead to the Council of Elrond, there probably would not have been an attempt to take the Ring from Frodo. Without that incident, the Fellowship would probably not have broken. They might even have been massacred, because if they were not scattered over the forest looking for Frodo, they would not have been able to take on the Uruk Hai piecemeal but have to face them all at once. And the Uruk Hai would not have legged it when they killed Boromir and grabbed the two Hobbits - they would have fought to the death. In fact they might even have grabbed the right hobbit, or all of them, with all their targets together.

Assuming that the Fellowship all survived, they probably would not have taken the long detour into Rohan. So Rohan would likely have fallen without their influence. At the very least, they wouldn't have reunited with Gandalf, because he was in the Fangorn area (and probably didn't know where they were) and they would still have been on their way to Mordor. Fangorn might not have risen, or at least would take longer (if a wandering Ent stumbled across Sarumans entrepreneurial logging industry; or a Ent was woken up when his legs got chopped off). So no Huorns to conveniently massacre any Uruk Hai fleeing from Helms Deep. If Rohan did survive, without the influence of Aragorn the rightful King of Gondor they might not resolved to ride to Gondors aid when the War came (especially if their own losses were more severe).

Thanks to Aragorn's Ranger craft, they likely would have made their way through Emyn Muil and the Dead Marshes quite easily, and not have encountered Gollum (he wouldn't have dared to approach such a large group). However, as they approached Mordor, being such a large group its likely they would have been spotted. If by some miracle they avoided detection and reached the Black Gate, they would still have decided against trying to enter through there as even with the 9 of them its still suicide. Faramir, who knows of the Cirith Ungol pass would then have offered an alternative (taking Gollums role).

With Faramir's native knowledge, once within Ithilien they would have found their way easily and avoided detection from the Haradrim and Ithilien Rangers. If they did encounter the Rangers, Faramir could have ordered them to let the Fellowship pass (him being their former commanding officer and all). They would have made it to Minas Morgul and the stair quite easily. Assuming they can climb the stair undetected, they probably would have made it through Shelobs lair quite easily. Faramir knew that there was some monster lurking there so they would be forewarned, and Shelob would have been more wary attacking such a large group. If she did attack, theres a greater chance that she would have been killed outright.

However, once they get to Cirith Ungol it all begins to fall apart. If the Orcs of Cirith Ungol realised they were being attacked by such a large group, they would have been more organised and united in fighting the Fellowship, rather than fighting amongst themselves. Also, they may not have fought each other in the first place as I believe its the argument between the leaders Shagrat and Gorbag over Frodo which sparked it (my perceptions affected by the films).

If by some miracle they made it into Mordor, this is where they definately would have been caught. Without Rohan riding to Gondors aid and the dead of Dunharrow sworn to Aragorn, Gondor would have fallen. The Battle of the Black Gate would never have happened, and Mordor would still have been swarming with Saurons legions. Theres no way 2 Men, an Elf, a Dwarf and 4 Hobbits could have passed through undetected.


And this is just one possible, arbitrary outcome. There are so many variables to consider. :?
Author:  boromir_of_ithilien [ Thu Aug 09, 2012 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What if...
IMO, if Faramir went with the Fellowship, Frodo and Sam wouldn't have gone off by themselves. I still think that the Fellowship would have successfully fled Amon Hen and eventually meet up with Eomer's riders. This way, they would then go to Rohan. There, Gandalf the White would have removed Saruman's influence over Theoden and banished Grima. Eomer and some other riders might have even been able to save Theodred and his men. After that, I could see Rohan marching on Isengard itself, being joined by Ents who have noticed the destruction of their forests. Saruman's men would have still had the Uruk-hai scouts from Amon Hen but would have less men of Dunland after the defeat against Theodred. I could even see the whole contingent allying with Radagast and some Druedain. Haldir and his elves may have even joined.

From here, Aragorn and maybe Gimli, Legolas, and Haldir, would have joined the Grey Company and summon the Army or the Dead. Gandalf, Faramir, and the other members, still unaware of Sauron's attack on Minas Tirith, may have tried to go to Gondor in aid of Boromir and his defense of Osgiliath. Upon reaching Gondor, they may have joined with Boromir who had most likely survived the siege of Osgiliath (Denethor wouldn't want his favortie son to die). Together, they would have gone to Denethor and asked him for Gondor's support in the war. Denethor wouldn't be able to refuse and take the ring if he sees his two sons wanting to destroy it. As they are about to go to the Black Gates, Gothmog and Sauron's orcs from Osgiliath would have started their attack on Minas Tirith. Together Denethor, Boromir, and Faramir would have defended the city while Gandalf and the hobbits would have made there way to Mount Doom, avoiding Shelob. Some of Faramir's rangers or even Beregond may have helped them. Prince Imrahil and the rest of the Fiefdoms would have also fought in the battle.

Aragorn and the rest would arrive with the Army of the Dead, defeating the Corsairs of Umbar and aiding Gondor's defense.The rightful King would have returned to Gondor, lighting the beacons calling for Rohan. A much stronger Rohan and some allies would have come just in time to defeat the incoming Harad and Khand forces. I would assume that the other minor battle during that time would have been won (Dol Guldur, Dale, etc.)

Together, all the survivors, minus the Army of the Dead, would have marched on to Mordor. By this time, Gandalf and the hobbits would have neared to Crack of Doom. On the way to the Black Gate, the army would have encountered Minas Morgul where they would have defeated several Ringwraiths. The remaining of the Nine would fly back to Mordor, informing Sauron of the incoming threat. The Battle at the Black Gate would have ensued. Since the army of good would have been much larger, Sauron would have been forced to join his army. As the battle goes on, Gollum would have caused a problem or two by attacking those in the Crack of Doom, either Frodo or Gollum would have eventually worn the ring out of desire. Sauron would have sensed it. Sauron would then ride his fell-beast alongside the Witch-king and other wraiths to the Crack of Doom. Gwaihir and his eagles would have picked up Aragorn, Radagast, and some other men and chase the fell-beasts. A battle at the Crack of Doom would ensue between Sauron and the wraiths against Gandalf, Aragorn, and the eagles. One of the hobbit would have eventually thrown the ring into the lava destroying Sauron but at the cost of either Gandalf or Aragorn dying. The eagles would have carried the survivors away, ending the War of the Ring.

Now that's just my opinion on what might have happened. :roll: Either Gandalf the White would have died upon completing his goal of aiding the Fellowship or Gondor/Arnor only saw the return of their king for a very short time. But if Glorfindel would have joined the Fellowship, it would be another story.
Author:  Pindergorn [ Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What if...
@Boromir_of_Ithilien.
If they survived the attack of Amon Hen, they would have have no reason to enter Rohan. In the books, the only reason Aragorn & co. entered Rohan, was to save Merry & Pippin (having been left behind by Frodo & Sam).

Amon Hen is on the western bank of Lake Nen Hithoel, which is above the Falls of Rauros (the big waterfall which blocked their path). Both of these are within the mountain range of Emyn Muil. Frodo & Sam had to cross to the Eastern bank and make their way on foot through the Emyn Muil.

If you look on a map, you'll see that all of this is on the Far Eastern border of Rohan. If they all survived Amon Hen, they would have had little reason to turn back west into Rohan. It is also a vast distance from the Emyn Muil/Amon Hen to the edge of Fangorn, which is the approximate area that Aragorn & co met Eomer (thats why Aragorn & co.s' hunt of the Uruk Hai across Rohan was so remarkable).

There is simply no reason in my opinion for the Fellowship to turn back west after Amon Hen and enter Rohan, unless they had serious injuries and needed medical attention. They were so close to Mordor already - they only had to cross the Emyn Muil (fairly easy with Faramir & Aragorns' Ranger craft and Legola's natural Elf abilities), and then they would be on the Western edge of the Dead Marshes. Why would they turn back when they were so close?
Author:  boromir_of_ithilien [ Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What if...
Oops. Didn't know that Amon Hen was that close to Mordor already. Anyways, just to stick with my story, I thought of possible outcomes why they had to go to Rohan. Not sure if they would fit though.

1) Since Saruman sort of wanted the ring for himself, he may have told his scouts to "push" the Fellowship away from Mordor and bring them to Isengard.

2) Gandalf the White might have appeared and told them to go to Rohan. He may have told the Fellowship to come with him to persuade Rohan to help in the war.

3) Maybe the Fellowship did sustain injuries. They had to take on several of the scouts. At least they were still together as a unit instead of broken.

4) Maybe another group of people made them enter Rohan. Maybe Haldir's elves came to them. Maybe even Radagast, the Druedain, or even Gwaihir came.

5) Maybe Faramir wanted Rohan's help. Maybe he wanted to call upon them to help Gondor defend Osgiliath. Maybe the group decided to travel down the Ered Nimrais first before eventually choosing to go to Edoras.
Author:  boromir_of_ithilien [ Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What if...
For me, either way, they would have had to go to Minas Tirith or Edoras. In Minas Tirith, they would have had to call upon the Rohirrim hopefully led by Theoden and Gandalf. If not, then they would be forced to take on Gothmog's legions and the Mumakil without them.
Author:  Pindergorn [ Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What if...
boromir_of_ithilien wrote:
For me, either way, they would have had to go to Minas Tirith or Edoras. In Minas Tirith, they would have had to call upon the Rohirrim hopefully led by Theoden and Gandalf. If not, then they would be forced to take on Gothmog's legions and the Mumakil without them.


No. Minas Tirith is the worst possible place they could have gone to. Denethor was already somewhat unstable from him use of the Palantir and contact with Sauron (the death of Boromir in the Canonical version pushing him over the edge into madness) and he was obsessed with the Ring from the moment he heard it was recovered. Putting the Ring in the same country, nevermind the same city, as Denethor would have been extremely risky.

He sent Boromir (or in this scenario, Faramir) to Rivindell to basically demand that the Ring be brought to Gondor to (ahem) be kept safe in a
Quote:
deep dark vault
or used in War against Sauron
Quote:
at the utmost end of need
.

If the Fellowship was so stupid as to actually take it to him, he may well have claimed for Gondor, by force if necessary. Its in the 'greater good' you see. :roll: Faramir may have protested, but Boromir likely would have supported his father.

You must always keep in mind, the Ring corrupts; Men most of all. If it had been taken to Rohan, Theodan or Eomer may well have tried to claim it too, considering their dire need. They like Denethor would have seen it as a Deus Ex Machina - a solution to all their problems and a potentially powerful weapon.
Author:  boromir_of_ithilien [ Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What if...
King Ondoher wrote:
No. Minas Tirith is the worst possible place they could have gone to. Denethor was already somewhat unstable from him use of the Palantir and contact with Sauron (the death of Boromir in the Canonical version pushing him over the edge into madness) and he was obsessed with the Ring from the moment he heard it was recovered. Putting the Ring in the same country, nevermind the same city, as Denethor would have been extremely risky.


Yup. You're probably right. I forgot that Denethor hates/despises both Gandalf and Aragorn. If ever the ring would go to Minas Tirith it would be an "every man for himself" situation.
Author:  Glorfindriel [ Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What if...
Yes, sending the Ring to Minas Tirith would have been a disaster.

"But if Glorfindel would have joined the Fellowship, it would be another story."

Well, I think Frodo and Sam + Glorfindel would have had a better chance of success than just the former two. I'm sure the Elf would have enough power and 'magic' to evade discovery, and more importantly his presence would have slowed Frodo's corruption. In the end Frodo succumbed and claimed the Ring - if not for the providential presence of Gollum, the Third Age may have been the last and everything that was good and bright been destroyed.
Glorfindel, having seen the Light of the West, would have partly counteracted the corruption of the Ring.
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