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How could we save the hobby?
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Author:  mi_trooper [ Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:08 pm ]
Post subject:  How could we save the hobby?
hey guys, just recently i watched a DCHL video and they were discussing the future of the hobbit/lotr sbg great video by the way worth the watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4HutuDn7AE . but after it i felt an urge to save the game. lol i know i may seem a bit over reacting but are there any plans in the works already? what are we going to do when the license gets dropped, no rules are being made/ sold anymore, no figures are being made or sold anymore, and everything becomes even more scarce and even more expensive on ebay? what are your guys's thoughts on the matter and are things being done already to preserve/save/ continue the game for further generations?

i personally quickly grabbed my hobbit rulebook and started rewriting/ changing the rules (so that its the same concept but with differnt words n stuff lol) on a word document which i soon stopped because that seemed a bit not really legal even if they drop the license and stop producing... and with my lack of self motivation the en devour seemed unrealistic to me XD... well with that said let the council begin :P :gandalf:
Author:  Draugluin [ Sat Jun 20, 2015 4:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How could we save the hobby?
I would say that the first thing would be to reconcile the LotR profiles with the Hobbit ones. Then fill in the profiles we may or may not be missing. Then enjoy not needing to buy anything new.

I personally really hope that GW does exactly this. They just need to release 1 more book, that includes all the rules, all the good and all the evil profiles.
Author:  jdizzy001 [ Sat Jun 20, 2015 7:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How could we save the hobby?
I would love to see one final comprehensive book. It would be a great cash grab for GW too. Its a win-win!
Author:  Afastr [ Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How could we save the hobby?
It would be nice but is also unlikely. Considering the Battle for Five armies was released as PDF as they didn't sell anywhere near the number of Desolation of Smaug sourcebooks that they wished to, I doubt they would commit to a possibly loss making / minimal profit book for a system which they are all up for abandoning.
Author:  jdizzy001 [ Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How could we save the hobby?
Kickstarter!
Author:  Oldman Willow [ Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How could we save the hobby?
There may be a different way to think about this. Decide if GW is your hobby or if your Hobby is the LOTR or the Hobbit. If "the hobby" means GW you will have to wait to see what they do. But if you mean gaming LOTR is your Hobby find a group of like minded people a form a club.
Author:  mi_trooper [ Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How could we save the hobby?
couldn't the community make a compiled pdf book or possibly hardback of the compiled profiles and such after GW drops the license? i mean the PDF could be free but if we did a hardback, we would have to somehow get a license for it. im not very knowledgeable on these sort of things lol i just don't want to see the game vanish and the figures become unattainable for future generations, and proxies just aren't the same after you watch a film or so.
Author:  GreenWood [ Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How could we save the hobby?
As an old SM/TL - epic player I've seen this happen before. But through the NetEpic initiative, and netepic armageddon the game has been kept very much alive and it is perhaps more vibrant now than ever, long after GW cut the game. So there is hope!

There are several succesfactors of course, the way the rules are kept and evolved is perhaps the most important. Have a look over at the tactical command forum.

But I would like to adress another of the important succescriteria - the use of proxies.

Proxies are instrumental in the games survival, and where I sence a sceptisism for proxies in SBG it is all thumbs up and nice find in NetEpic. Proxies were not only accepted, but I would say encouraged. Which has helped spur on the creation of small model making bussinesses like Steel Crown, Troublemaker Games, Onslaught Miniatures, Dark Realm and other who in turn help keeping the hobby alive.

The Proxies are ok for friendlies, but not for tournaments attitude is not gonna cut it once GW drops LOTR. OK, the game mechanics of SBG is not as abstract as those of NetEpic/NetEpic Armageddon so some stricter policies on scale, base size and such must be maintained, but still the road to survival goes through a general acceptance of the use of proxies also on the tournament scene.
Author:  Draugluin [ Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How could we save the hobby?
The reason proxies aren't very popular is because the movies have a very specific look, which no one else is allowed to replicate.
Author:  LordElrond [ Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How could we save the hobby?
Well he real reason that proxies are looked down on is because everyone wants the models to represent the books/movies properly, apart from the obvious thing where one person pays hundreds of pounds for a laketown army say, and someone else turns up with a bunch of gripping beast or war games factory miniature which cost about a fifth of the price.
Author:  GreenWood [ Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How could we save the hobby?
Well, what if the alternative is having one less player? I would certainly rather have someone turn up with som proxies than not turn up at all! And so what if that someone has been smart and saved some money! Why should I be bothered by that, after all nobody forced me to spend a ton om money on certain models, it is always a matter of prefrence and choice!

Not all the units in the game are in the movies! I don't think GW even have created models for all the profiles in the game. So it's a game that really encourages the use of proxies and conversions!

However. One thing I don't really care for is the use of proxies and conversio s to get ingame favours, like adding axes to get piercing strikes on units that normally should not have it. I've sadly done it myself in the past, although by mistake.
Author:  Harfoot [ Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How could we save the hobby?
Oldman Willow wrote:
There may be a different way to think about this. Decide if GW is your hobby or if your Hobby is the LOTR or the Hobbit. If "the hobby" means GW you will have to wait to see what they do. But if you mean gaming LOTR is your Hobby find a group of like minded people a form a club.


Fully agree, the hobby of LOTR/Hobbit will never die (don't really care if GW do).
I will always be painting and gaming as many people in are gaming club do, not just with GW rules either.

To me its about Middle Earth, not just the film take on it, i have miniatures from various companies who have had Tolkien licences over the years.
Author:  Ukfreddybear [ Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How could we save the hobby?
I don't think the hobby needs saving. There are plenty of people to keep a core continuation going for quite a while. The real question should be how do we make the game accessible for new players, who haven't had access to or experience of the game for one reason or another.
Author:  Gandlaf the Grey [ Tue Jun 30, 2015 7:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How could we save the hobby?
The realist in me sees so many things that are blocking this ranges development with attracting products and new gamers and hobbyists that I fear it will go like D&D did. It will slowly fade with nothing but a few hardcore keeping it alive. With nothing being produced they will resort to alternatives or own conversions.
A shame, and I sincerely hope I'm wrong but that is how I read all the writing and subliminal messages.
Author:  aelfwine [ Sat Jul 11, 2015 10:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How could we save the hobby?
Well, the Hobbit SBG is not the "hobby." The "hobby" doesn't need saving. It changes. However, the particular subset we like - skirmish level miniatures gaming in the Middle-earth setting, has some issues. Those issues are obvious: low rate of production, premium rate prices for what are not premium rate figures, the weaknesses of the source property, the tensions within the GW community over the "odd man out" game and so on.

On the plus side, it represents a solid game, represents a loyal community and involves playing in the foundational work of the modern fantasy genre.

However, every hobby needs a functional social network (not the electronic kind) to remain vital. Dungeons and Dragons, for example, expanded along such a network as various members of the network pitched the game to someone, anyone, who might want to play. Those drawn in did the same thing, all to ensure a stable group. GW is an outgrowth of that network, and its particular business model saw it inserting itself into the network with commercial hubs to maintain the hobby or game or whatchamacllit. They made their network indistinguishable from the hobby, to many.

Anyway, point being, that hobby games survive on that network. And not all hobby games will survive, despite having a lot else going for them. Hobbit/SBG has struggle to keep its network vital. A key reason for that struggle has been prices, but also these networks thrive on news and new releases. "Oh my, I heard a rumour that next month we will see a ..." is a weird glue that binds communities together. Even people going "man, those new...whatevers" helps create that network.

What can be done, I suspect, is:

- stop waiting for some future event which will cause a resurgence. There won't be any more films for a long time, if ever.
- demo the game to others. SBG is a good starter game, and is a lot of fun. its an asset.
- write your own content
- Think about maybe creating an open source rule set that plays similarly (a retro clone, to use the industry term), with the same sort of speed.
- Create a set of community approved alternate manufacturers. Seriously, chasing ebay for a few figures to make a warband playable is expensive and playable. As nice as the LOTR costume designs are, a lot of them are pretty derivative. Alternates can work. Indeed, there may be no alternative (no pun intended). Even if GW continues the line, its never going to be affordable to do much more than warband on warband games.
- of course the ultimate would be if someone made a bunch of IP scraped figures that work with a skirmish game and look nice alongside the SBG figures

But in the end, what will keep the hobby/the game going is that social network, that way of maintaining the game, and luring new people in. Without that, it will fade.
Author:  aelfwine [ Sat Jul 11, 2015 10:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How could we save the hobby?
Gandlaf the Grey wrote:
The realist in me sees so many things that are blocking this ranges development with attracting products and new gamers and hobbyists that I fear it will go like D&D did. It will slowly fade with nothing but a few hardcore keeping it alive. With nothing being produced they will resort to alternatives or own conversions.
A shame, and I sincerely hope I'm wrong but that is how I read all the writing and subliminal messages.


Between D+D and Pathfinder, that hobby probably outmatches GW's player base by quite a ways. GW famously published an editorial about how they were such a wise and valid company for abandoning RPGs, because there were "only about five thousand" RPG gamers in the UK. WOTC had some figure for how many 3.0 and 3.5 era Player's Handbooks were sold - it was a whole lot more than that.

How-and-ever, one thing D+D (and D+Dish) gaming does is fracture pretty easily. Someone likes the first Basic, someone else likes the second Basic, which is almost the same, but not quite, someone else likes AD+D 1E, others prefer 2e, some like 3.5, others 4, others essentials, other prefer Pathfinder and still someone else likes True 20. Everyone's sort of playing the same game, but you never really get a sort of synergistic effect because of that.

Ths SBG has rather less fault lines.
Author:  Dorthonion [ Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How could we save the hobby?
Middle-earth and all that pertains to it will live on long after GW is gone and forgotten. PJ's vision is one thing but I see no reason to panic if someone turns up with say, knights templar and asks if they can proxy them for KoDA. As long as everyone knows what something is supposed to be, and probably if it is not ridiculous (like a Kingtiger standing in for a mumak), I would be fine with that.
Author:  Sacrilege83 [ Fri Jul 17, 2015 2:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How could we save the hobby?
aelfwine wrote:
- of course the ultimate would be if someone made a bunch of IP scraped figures that work with a skirmish game and look nice alongside the SBG figures

Perry Miniatures can make for some awesome substitutes.
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