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(SPOILERS) The Desolation of Smaug discussion
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Author:  Amarthadan [ Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:50 pm ]
Post subject:  (SPOILERS) The Desolation of Smaug discussion
So, I thought I'd start up a thread about the Desolation of Smaug, since it's been released in a few places already. :)

My personal opinion:

Pro's:

- Thranduil is a god.
- Beorn looks great.
- Everything in Mirkwood looks great.
- Nice looking action sequences albeit over the top and ridiculous at times.
- Good acting for the most part.
- The spiders scene was better than I could've hoped for.:)

Con's:

- Pacing problems: The first half of the movie moves at a merciless pace, while the second half slows down too much. Beorn for example has about 10 minutes screen time MAX, while some laketown parts or even Smaug at the ending takes too long.
- Tauriel started out great, but the whole athelas healing scene is ridiculous . I expected Kili to turn into Hugh Grant at any moment.
- AGAIN the bias towards Kili. Fili is in this movie too, PJ...
- Some dwarves still haven't had one line or more than one close-up, 2 movies into a trilogy.
- Gandalf discovers the Necromancer is Sauron. PJ felt the best way to make Sauron scary was to use and infinite loop GIF of Sauron as an eye changing to a figure, to an eye again...
- Smaug comes of as the intelligent dragon he should be, but then PJ decides to ruin it with an over the top action sequence. The golden statue, the forges, was that really necessary...? Smaug turns into your average unintelligent animal for about 15 minutes before turning into his smart self again at the end.
- The entire Azog storyline still makes no sense, possibly even less, after Bolg has been so casually introduced.
- I guess GW and other companies are once again fooled into making a miniature that doesn't appear in the (or this) film, e.g. Thrain.
-PJ keeps trying sooooo desperately to make every possible LOTR reference he can, it comes off as though he's afraid to come up with new material. Half of the time I was capable of saying what characters would say before they actually said it, because PJ already had those similar lines in LOTR.


Overall, I liked the movie, but I don't know whether I like it more than the first one. At times I found the action dumbed down the real story. Also, This film has no catharsis of it's own. Nothing gets solved (apart from "OH NO, the necromancer is Sauron! :o), no wars fought, this is STILL a build-up to the third movie. TTT didn't do that, they at least ended the Rohan-Mordor war (in the eye of the moviegoer) in the second movie.

Overall I liked it, mostly due to Lee Pace's portrayal of Thranduil.

On to the next one!
Author:  Oldman Willow [ Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: (SPOILERS) The Desolation of Smaug discussion
I am going to see the Midnight show. I won't be able to get my Chronicles III book until Friday. I am looking forward to planning some new boards.
Author:  Lorindol [ Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: (SPOILERS) The Desolation of Smaug discussion
Amarthadan wrote:
So, I thought I'd start up a thread about the Desolation of Smaug, since it's been released in a few places already. :)

My personal opinion:

Pro's:

- Thranduil is a god.
- Beorn looks great.
- Everything in Mirkwood looks great.
- Nice looking action sequences albeit over the top and ridiculous at times.
- Good acting for the most part.
- The spiders scene was better than I could've hoped for.:)


Totally agree on this!!


Click to: Show
I really would have liked seeing thrain and more of Beorn. I thought he was really cool both in bear as in man form. I Liked Bard as well.. specially his prophecy :twisted:

I think PJ has gone a bit over the top with the athelas!! (in lotr in only slows the poisoning just like aragorn says.. Than only some on like Elrond can heal Frodo.. In the hobit tauriel comes along does a spell and he's all fixed.. pff bit unnecessary if you ask me..

I liked the dwarf scenes though.. Bit silly Bilbo took the ring off that easily facing smaug.. I did miss the ravens and their speech. Wonder how Bard will know of the gap in Smaugs armour.

The whole scene in lake town with the dwarfs in the mountain was not very good if you ask me.. How did the orcs and bolg get past the town guards?? then the elves just show up.. I mean what?? Didn't like that very much.

I did find Sauron very good. Just like how I would imagine him.. A gosth like presence and not really a figure save the eye


Having said that I enjoyed the movie very much! I'm going to see it again this weekend. Probably like it even better afterwards haha :D
Author:  Fin [ Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: (SPOILERS) The Desolation of Smaug discussion
If you're looking for me, I'm off, dipping dragons... :E
Author:  Lord of Winterfell [ Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: (SPOILERS) The Desolation of Smaug discussion
Overall F***ing brilliant! Back to middle earth once again.

And smaug is amazing!

Now there are a few problems with the film but I'll talk about them when I'm not tired!

Good night!
Author:  Captain Ingold [ Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: (SPOILERS) The Desolation of Smaug discussion
Just got back from the pre-screening - first in Ireland, whooooo. :D So, point by point through Rueben's post...

Amarthadan wrote:
- Thranduil is a god.

Thranduil is Nicolas Cage. I can't get over the resemblance, even though no one agrees with me. Oh, and I get that he's meant to be arrogant, but I feel it's been overdone. Far too much emphasis on "Thranduil's not nice" and not enough on "look, he's King of the largest Elvish realm east of the Undying Lands".

Quote:
- Beorn looks great.

Yep. More of him would've been great. I would have liked it if they'd introduced him more as to the book, but the fact that we got him at all is great. Seems to fit the Beorn of the book, too.

Quote:
- Everything in Mirkwood looks great.
...
- The spiders scene was better than I could've hoped for.:)

Mirkwood was awesome. Really well done; perfect cross between Fangorn and Shelob's lair.

Quote:
- Nice looking action sequences albeit over the top and ridiculous at times.

So ridiculous. :P Bombur in the barrel was hilarious, but too many cheap laughs with people's heads in these two films.
Quote:
- Good acting for the most part.

It's PJ, what do you expect? :wink:

Quote:
- Pacing problems: The first half of the movie moves at a merciless pace, while the second half slows down too much. Beorn for example has about 10 minutes screen time MAX, while some laketown parts or even Smaug at the ending takes too long.

Agreed. I get that they're trying to set up the climactic finale, but the scenes in Erebor were dragged out far too much compared to the earlier bits.

Quote:
- Tauriel started out great, but the whole athelas healing scene is ridiculous . I expected Kili to turn into Hugh Grant at any moment.

I don't even know what's going on there any more. :?

Quote:
- AGAIN the bias towards Kili. Fili is in this movie too, PJ...
- Some dwarves still haven't had one line or more than one close-up, 2 movies into a trilogy.

Fan service. :roll: I'm not entirely sure Bombur has even had a line yet.

Quote:
- Gandalf discovers the Necromancer is Sauron. PJ felt the best way to make Sauron scary was to use and infinite loop GIF of Sauron as an eye changing to a figure, to an eye again...

I was so happy that they got in this side plot, considering how important it is to the LotR trilogy and how it explains Gandalf's absences, but again, overplayed. What's with the bubble fight? And the High Fells? And the Orcs? "We are legion", seriously?

Quote:
- Smaug comes of as the intelligent dragon he should be, but then PJ decides to ruin it with an over the top action sequence. The golden statue, the forges, was that really necessary...? Smaug turns into your average unintelligent animal for about 15 minutes before turning into his smart self again at the end.
- The entire Azog storyline still makes no sense, possibly even less, after Bolg has been so casually introduced.

Yep yep yep yep yep.

Quote:
- I guess GW and other companies are once again fooled into making a miniature that doesn't appear in the (or this) film, e.g. Thrain.

Well, we did sort of have Thrain in the last film, albeit for only a short few scenes.


Oh, and I do agree with pretty much everything else you've said. :P For my own part, I am quite annoyed at Bard the... Bargeman? And what's all this about ballistae? Can he not just be an archer, as he should be?
Author:  Dorthonion [ Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: (SPOILERS) The Desolation of Smaug discussion
I have had over an hour to gather my thoughts.
Visually spectacular, and I am not just referring to the action stuff - Laketown is very detailed, believeable in its gritty, down at heel, hanging on to past glories fashion.
The spiders were intimidating.
Bolg and the rest of his band were a nasty bunch, ugly as sin.
Legolas and Tauriel were dazzlingly deadly, but the whirling dervish that was Bombur was a memorable moment.
There are also some little quiet gems in there - quite a few between Bilbo and Balin.
And then there is Smaug.
He is huge. He is evil, a creature that has magical qualities but utterly evil. His discussion with Bilbo is very absorbing. I hope whatever mini GW make does him some physical justice - ok, we don't something that breaks the bank but fellas, mumak sized is just too damned small.
The ending is too abrupt and knowing it was going to be like that, I listened to the reaction of the audience around us - they were annoyed that it ended so suddenly and wanted more. That is a good sign, I hope.
Author:  Shadowandflame [ Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: (SPOILERS) The Desolation of Smaug discussion
Hey all! I've been a long time lurker of the site (love it) and fan of the hobby, and this will be my first post! needless to say spoilers are throughout.
I caught the movie last night at my local theatre, and I have to say I enjoyed the experience. I just had to keep reminding myself that it was an adaptation and not a direct copy of the book. Smaug looked amazing, and I think PJ delivered the best dragon I have seen on the big screen. Ever.
But for all its grandiose, there was a few things that just annoyed me beyond belief (being someone whose read and loved the hobbit) .

First of all, the inclusion of Tauriel. I actually liked her character until they started throwing in the hints of love between her a Kili. It just completely pulls you away from the entire Mirkwood dungeon atmosphere, and then when she heals Kili in lake town, I was expecting expecting Marvin Gaye's "Let's get it on" to start playing when she was backlit by that bright yellow light.

Another thing that kept nagging me was the graphics of the molten gold or lava or whatever the dwarves were making in Erebor. It almost seemed like the designers spent so much time making Smaug look so damn good, (which he did) that they let that part suffer, especially watching Thorin go floating down it in a wheel barrow without creating a ripple or a wake.

Most of all it was the entire scene with the dwarves trying to fight off Smaug. I can understand PJ wants to make changes, but that entire climax seemed just like a complete attempt to kill time to make it to the cliffhanger. And who thought it would be a good idea to kill Smaug, probably the hottest thing outside of Mount Doom, by making him really, really, hot?
All in all though, it was a fun adventure to watch, and I thought Thranduil was the best part, he was portrayed brilliantly. When he interrogates Thorin and leans over dramatically to get face to face with him was probably my favourite scene in the movie, and I actually really liked the fight scene with Bolg. I'm just hoping this is all a lead up to a fantastic third movie.
Author:  Jobu [ Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: (SPOILERS) The Desolation of Smaug discussion
I thought it was an abomination, the storyline could have been so much better without gutting the middle earth that tolkein created. There were so many opportunities to expand the storyline, which was done and then abandoned at a whim.
Visually stunning, yes.
Author:  Hill-Troll [ Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: (SPOILERS) The Desolation of Smaug discussion
Since there's too much good stuff, i will only write the bad stuff:
WTF was up with the white spider? It did not even look like a spider.
Bolg needs a new chestplate and voice.
Fimbul's death scene.
Smaug's neck is too long and he needs four legs.
Not enough Beorn.
Narzug's evil monkey laugh.
Smaug having lost a scale instead of book version.
Not enough shots of the army in dol guldur.

And Bombur actually had a line! He said "Alright!" when they were at the ovens.
Bombur in barrel = awesome
Peter Jackson's cameo was great too.
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: (SPOILERS) The Desolation of Smaug discussion
I noticed there was no soundtrack during Bombur's barrel scene, my theory is that the music editors - who probably spend most of their time whacking grand overtures over scenes of people trekking - either stormed out, in a fit of confusion, or had no idea what on earth to do, so gave up.

The film was awesome, Bombur in a barrel was certainly the highlight.
Author:  Draugluin [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 2:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: (SPOILERS) The Desolation of Smaug discussion
Of all the things I disliked about this movie, it can be summed in two words, Tauriel and gold. If the Tauriel and Kili "romance" (I think?) scenes were removed, or replaced or just make Kili poisoned, not black darted, then it would have been better. The forges and gold river and statue didn't make too much sense, especially when Thorin gets in his wheelbarrow. That was just retarded.

However, Bombur made up for it.
Author:  Lorindol [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: (SPOILERS) The Desolation of Smaug discussion
Hill-Troll wrote:
Peter Jackson's cameo was great too.


Yeah it was pretty cool that he did the same thing as in LOTR FOTR. :lol:
Author:  Dorthonion [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: (SPOILERS) The Desolation of Smaug discussion
And did anyone else realise that the pugs seen in Laketown were 2 of PJ's dogs (after whom many of the RED 3D cameras were named). Alan Lee and John Howe were in another cameo as musicians in the Laketown band.

Anyone who can create a Battling Bombur in a barrel will be greatly envied :)
Author:  Hill-Troll [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: (SPOILERS) The Desolation of Smaug discussion
I want Barrel-Bombur minature GW! NOW!
Author:  Sticky Fingersss [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: (SPOILERS) The Desolation of Smaug discussion
I thought the film was just as good if not better than AUJ. I really like how the elves are portrayed as lesser elves than their Rivendell Brothers. The Barrel Scene and Bombur was fantastic and funny. Smaug was the most perfect and badass dragon. The only criticism i can offer is the entire character of Tauriel. She was just thrown in and doesn't add anything better to the story and expanded an awful cringing love story which only cheapened the film.
Author:  Grungehog [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: (SPOILERS) The Desolation of Smaug discussion
a deep breath: THE BAD
I thoroughly hated kili/tauriel romance [word deleted].
Beorn looks F******* stupid, and doesnt have the right hairstyle or beard style, according to my imagination!
I can't stand how Beorn was introduced or portrayed.
Bilbo has the one ring, yet he seems determined to not wear it ever, especially in dangerous situations WTF.
I thought Bard was meant to look grim, not like a welsh boy with a dodgey moustache. Personally I had imagined a man, with no facial hair and a few wrinkles too.
Killi getting shot in the leg WTF.
Let's have Bard sneak the dwarves into esgaroth.
The dwarves being seperated some going to erebor the others staying in esgaroth.
What the hell is wrong with Smaug, HE is meant to be a DRAGON not a bloody wyvern!Also he didn't seem to have any control over anything.
Let us have dwarves fighting at any willy nilly chance possible, even though per the book they only fight at the BoFA, where a good deal of them die too.
The whole lets try and melt Smaug with a molten gold thror, then Smaug being all like "it burns" in a gollum-esque voice. which brings me to, where the hell is Bilbo there, isn't he on the floor where all the molten gold is.
Not seeing thrain.
Azog added nothing to the story, and also lost a sense of power he had in the first film.
That ballista business, with the black arrow?
Acting in a few scenes was terrible, especialy Tauriel and the welsh kids

The GOOD
So here goes
I thought the spiders were really cool, lovely depiction, I also apreciated their conversation.
I also really enjoyed bilbo fighting a giant centipede too.
Bolg simply bad-ass, although clearly not a leader because of his intelligence.
I love how Bolg smashed Legolas up nice an proper.
Ninja elf scene and legolas parkour antics inculding the odd dwarf head steeping stone game.
the outer design of erebor was pretty cool, though I could with some more convincing where esgaroth is concerned, I think it will look really cool on fire.
The design of the Gundabad orcs is fantastic I think.
Narzug and fimbul decapitations briliant!

I know this an adaptation of the book, the book shows finesse, subtlety and a sense of immersion.
Unlike this chaotic fight, twist and smash feel the blockbuster delivers.
Also the whole thing is full of filler material to have 3 films
I left the cinema angry and confused overall and ran 3 miles to get back home!
Author:  Zogash [ Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: (SPOILERS) The Desolation of Smaug discussion
To be honest, I'm pretty surprised the overall consensus here seems to be quite positive! While I myself haven't seen the film (being a staunch Tolkien traditionalist the movies just don't do it for me), eight of my friends went to see it on Friday. They were all totally stoked to go, some even dressed up as Dwarves/Hobbits, chainmail and all - and they all HATED it!

From what I could gather, the only redeeming qualities to them were Smaug's visuals and Thranduil, while the rest was a convoluted mess. Walking Tolkien encylopedia that I am they asked me for the book versions of some of the more screwed-up plot lines, and some things reinforced me in my decision to ignore these films' very existence... Bard's dad shot out the scale from Smaug's chest? Seriously?! Wow, that's just weak... and the molten gold scene makes me cringe just imagining it.

What's sad to me is that PJ's casting choices (too young/virtually beardless dwarves aside) are pretty much spot on - i.e. there can be no better Gandalf than MacKellen and Freeman makes for a great Bilbo - it's the writing that does them a disservice: you can only do so much with a rubbish script.

From what I've seen (I did see part 1 and regret it to this day...) and heard, PJ is making the same mistakes George Lucas made with the Prequels, and something Michael Bay does with every movie: overindulge in senseless CGI action-fests at the expense of the story. I realize that action scenes are fun and all, but they should always drive the plot forward, not be one 3D slapstick rollercoaster ride after the other just for the sake of showing off 3D technology. The problem is that these kinds of movies are what's 'in' right now and make bank for the studios. e.g. no one in their right mind would call Transformers 3 a great drama, yet it still grossed over a billion dollars! Tolkien's stories, however, are great dramas, and dumbing them down and slapping rubbery CGI over gritty characters (Lurtz >>>> Azog) just throws me off sooo much.
Author:  JamesR [ Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: (SPOILERS) The Desolation of Smaug discussion
I watched DOS yesterday and enjoyed it.
I agree many of the fights are over the top and how much of the film differs from the book, but I came in with full expectations of such changes so they didn't bother me.
Personally I do prefer much of the movies changes to the Hobbit book, no talking wallet etc.

I enjoyed having Tauriel in the movie, I thought she was the coolest elf, and I didn't mind the romance of Tauriel and Kili, while it didn't really add to the story primary story arc I don't mind the film building up a more rounded life for these characters.

I liked Beorn, reminded me of Hugh jackman as Wolverine a bit, he seemed very wild and all even in "man" form. To me he was more of a force of nature than anything else so i liked that. And the fact that he's kinda other-worldly like Tree-beard was another plus for me. Beorn, Tree-beard and the like represent the past age of Middle-Earth and so making them so different showed the changing of their world around them, I thought.

I liked Smaug, I don't think he went "dumb" or anything its just his blind rage and hate that he has for Thorin's line that drives him to wrecklessness, he's had quite a while to stew on it as he seems to have expected Thorin to return to attempt to re-take Erebor.

All in all I thought it was a very good movie, I would like to see the fighting return to a more LOTR trillogy style (in terms of choreography), I wasn't a huge fan of Bolg, he looks like his daddy but I was partial to the previous character model myself, but he certainly wasn't terrible in my opinion
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: (SPOILERS) The Desolation of Smaug discussion
Tauriel was great, the sub plot with her and Kili didn't bother me. I was really worried the film would basically be a Legolas fest but thank god he was portrayed in a totally different light, he reminded me of Darth Vader in the original trilogy in that he was a bit like an SS Officer, just marching in and messin' dudes up. Thranduil was portrayed perfectly (i.e a total barnpot).
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